Marcus’ NCE DCC for Everyone. No pictures in this version. More DCC stuff at my Main North HOME
Topics in blue are web pages and won’t print in DCC for Novices. Topics in italics are future Topics
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DCC is for Everyone. |
Sound Decoders. |
Wiring & General. |
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General |
See Allan Gartner’s Wiring for DCC |
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General instructions & programming |
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Speakers and mounting |
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Programming. |
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Soundtraxx – Tsunami & DSDs |
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My method of setting up Tsunamis |
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Decoder Pro. |
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QSI |
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Decoder Pro 2.4x Manual > 8.0 MB |
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Loksound |
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Installing Decoders & Gen info. |
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NCE Specific Information - System. |
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How about a video visit to NCE? |
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Decoder types/sizes |
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Great DCC sites, Groups etc. |
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Motor Control |
Details of 2004 EPROM Upgrade |
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Marcus’ NSW Main North in DCC |
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NCE Info - Cabs/Throttles. |
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Choosing a DCC system. |
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Intro NCE & DCC at Tony’s |
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Lights & Resistors |
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Power Cab – NCE’s “Entry Level” |
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LEDs Connecting to decoder. |
NCE Radio |
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Consisting. |
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Consisting with Back EMF |
Clubs/Associations of Australia |
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Australian Model Railway Mag. |
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Australian Model Railway Assoc |
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NMRA Australian Region. |
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Printing DCC for Novices. |
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Radio - Yard mode does not work |
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DCC is for Everyone.
During Oct 06, there was discussion on the NCE DCC Yahoo Group requesting a book along the lines of the “xxx for Dummies” series of books and asked if there could be a DCC for Dummies or a similarly titled book to address issues that a newbie or novice DCC user would have, that don't understand all sorts of things electrical etc and the jargon that sometimes is necessary to solve some of the new issues.
I thought the user manuals that came with systems and all the components, answered so many of the questions asked. On the 15 or so model railroad Yahoo groups that I belong to, there are many questions that repeat themselves due to the steady growth in new members. All these groups just get bigger as people see and reap the benefits of sound and DCC on their ever growing model railroad empires that provide a much more satisfying operating experience. Model trains are now MUCH more fun, now.
Later in the month (Oct 06), I had a very comfortable, non pain 5 day hospital stay that caused me to miss the NMRA Convention here in Sydney Australia. I took my laptop and decided to start to put together “DCC for Novices” that I hope will help a few modellers. Something I would not have done if I was at home. Being a one fingered typist and of average comprehension ability (I should have been more serious at high school all those years ago in the 60s), what I get onto these pages may not be grammatically correct and free flowing, hopefully will have the technical content, necessary to answer any questions asked.
I purchased my NCE DCC radio system in Feb 03 after using a local DC Command control system, Infocom, so independent train control is not new to me. I am still learning about my NCE DCC system and I don’t use all the features of this great DCC system that just continues to get better, if that's possible. NCE releases Command Station Upgrades regularly (EPROMs), that provide enhancements to the system eg the great new 2004 Consisting method of double ended loco addressing etc and fixes to any bugs that get past the beta testers that become evident due to many modellers demanding operating experiences and Jim Scorse's relentless desire to make it the best DCC system. Thanks Jim and the team at NCE.
Thanks to Mark Gurries, Rex Beistle, Don Vollrath, Mark Schutzer, Den Lippert and others for all the great informative replies on the NCE Yahoo Group list, that answer so many of the questions. I am staggered at their input and I am always learning.
DCC for Novices is aimed mainly at NCE users, as I know a little about the NCE system but nothing about the others. I can see how hard it would be to write a DCC for Dummies type of book for all the systems, because many of the questions asked are system specific. Systems are being enhanced with more features and better ways of doing things (look at the way Consisting is done now). A requirement for a continually updated book would be impossible. There are many general topics for all. Now I am committed to the web book, I’ll have to update it along the way.
If anyone has a question, that the answer would be valuable to others, please let me know and I will include it in these pages.
Hope you enjoy DCC for Novices and hopefully it answers some of your queries.
DCC is for Everyone.
DCC is for ALL existing DC layouts and layouts of any size, not just for new and large layouts. Now is the time to connect DCC, it’s much easier now. Just connect the DCC of your choice and you’ll have so much more fun.
NCE’s “Entry Level” system, the 1.5 Amp Power Cab at US$189.95 (Tony’s $149.95) Aug 2010, makes this so much cheaper than the Power Pro, and is a “full blown” DCC system, in the palm of your hand with most of the features of the 5 Amp Power Pro.
With the availability of RTR DCC locos complete with sound and cheaper DCC Entry Levels systems, it has never been easier and cheaper to install DCC on any layout. All those stories you've heard about re-wiring the layout and modifying points/turnouts may not happen on your own layout. Just get DCC connected and see what ACTUALLY happens.
Imagine how an owner of an existing DC layout that operates free of any major problem, would feel, when told by us DCCers, or what he reads in the DCC books, sees on the chat groups etc, that if their wiring was smaller than 12 or 14 AWG, they would need to rewire their layouts. Not many DC layouts are wired with anything this size. Also to have trouble free operation at points/turnouts, all these should be made DCC Friendly. Any interest these DC owners had in DCC, would soon disappear. They would feel that DCC is a big joke. They would rightly say I’ll be happy with DC if that's what it takes to have DCC. They would be robbed of all the benefits of DCC.
While I thoroughly agree with using thicker wire, so that the system can sense a short, this depends on the size of the layout, the length of the Power Busses and the DCC system used.
The effect of global shutdowns of the layout when there is a short at the Points/Turnouts should be assessed for EACH layout and can only be done AFTER DCC has been connected. You may only have the occasional short that may be very tolerable. Modifying all your installed Points/Turnouts for this, is plainly too much effort for only a small gain and certainly not necessary before you connect DCC. Anyway any problems found, you can fix them later at a time that is suitable and convenient to yourself, in the meantime you're reaping the benefits and having fun with DCC.
See below how to easily connect DCC.
What is DCC.
Digital Command Control is where a decoder (receiver) with its own unique address, is installed in every loco, between the loco’s Pick Ups and the motor, to tell it how to operate. The address, speed, direction etc, of a loco, is selected on the throttle and is combined with power from the system and sent to all sections of the layout. Only the loco with the address “match”, will move while all the others, remain stationary.
To achieve this level of independent control, does require extra expense and in a lot of cases effort (installing decoders), but the benefits of operating a layout with DCC, will soon be realised.
A simple analogy is: In DC you control your layout and in DCC you control your loco/train.
The extra level of realism that DCC provides, is in every ones reach now, with the availability of many reasonably priced RTR DCC locos (fitted with a decoder), many with sound and cheaper entry level DCC systems. Wiring up a DCC layout is easier than DC, no need for any electrical blocks in many situations and DCC can be installed on any existing operating DC layout, see below how to.
As a DC owner/operator, would you like any of these features when operating your trains on your personal or club layout?
If you answer yes to a few of these, then DCC is for you. The benefit that each modeller gets from DCC will vary, depending on the:
DCC is not for everyone. Some model railroaders are happy watching trains go around the layout and don’t consider operation as a part of the running session. What someone sees as a priority, others may not? It is all about choice.
There are hardly any choices with DC but DCC has many.
I have mentioned some of the benefits of DCC, and YES they do come at a cost. These include:
Talking about installing decoders in all your locos, I operate a medium sized walk around double deck layout (approx 30 feet x 30 feet) with 25 locos, so now how many do you have to chip? Fitting decoders to locos is so much easier now. The size of decoders is getting much smaller, more features and cheaper. A small HO decoder is the size of your thumb nail. How easy will this be to fit?
Manufacturers are now providing locos that make it all that easier to go DCC, when purchasing new models. They are:
DCC Ready locos that have all the loco wiring terminated (for HO) with a NMRA 8 pin socket that makes installing a decoder really easy. Another benefit, there is room for the decoder and this is important if the loco is manufactured with a large weight and many are these days.
DCC Equipped locos that come with a decoder already fitted and ready to run. There are manufacturers making RTR sound locos, for example Broadway Limited in the U.S. and Eureka Models in Australia. These locos are the best. When the installation of the decoder and/or sound is done by manufacturer, it is so much cheaper. In my Eureka Models AD60 Garratt, supplied with sound, it cost extra A$90. This is a lot less than the Soundtraxx Tsunami decoder and speaker that I would have to purchase (A$165) and I did not have to spend hours, fitting it and grinding some weight out to find room for the chip and speaker.
Once you have operated on a DCC layout, you will find the restrictions in DC, hard to put up with.
Playing trains is only a part of this wonderful hobby. Some modellers spend a great deal of their hobby hours building beautifully detailed models, while others make wonderful scenery etc. There still is only 24 hours in a day. DCC is NOT the only way to control a layout, but it has been said, In DCC you operate your loco, whereas in DC you operate your layout.
Things have changed since I went to DCC, in April 03.
These things have changed and will make a huge difference in going DCC. Now is the Time. The below list items, will make you DCC adventure cheaper, easier and above all, more fun especially with the availability of RTR sound locos and sound decoders.
· DCC systems have become cheaper.
· Many DCC manufacturers offer entry level systems. Eg. NCE’s Power Cab can be purchased for US$139.95.
· Decoders are cheaper, smaller in size for easier installation and offer more features and function outputs.
· Decoder current determination uses slipping current instead of Stall current, enabling Z scale decoders in HO locos.
· These small 1 Amp decoders like the NCE Z14SR and the TCS M1 can be located between HO steam locos driving wheels, allowing separation of tender and loco for better handling and easy installation. Good for club operators.
· Locos of the latest designs (last 15 to 20 years) only need about 200 300 mAs of current.
· Manufacturers are producing DCC RTR locos.
· Many RTR locos are available with sound. Sound provides a whole new dimension to your layout.
· The availability of these RTR, means users that feel they don't have skills to fit decoders, now can have DCC.
There are four excellent DCC books available from hobby shops and the Internet. The first 3 are published by Kalmbach Books.
Any of these books are suitable and certainly worthwhile for new entrants into the DCC. These books explain what DCC is about, in not too technical terms. Included are descriptions of the DCC systems components including: Command Stations, booster, throttles etc, how to wire up a layout, how to install a decoder etc.
The latest (late 2007), The DCC Guide by Don Fiehmann, is thoroughly recommended.
Digital Command Control was written by members of the NMRA DCC Working group that implanted certain Standards and Recommended Practices (R.Ps.) that are necessary for the continued success of DCC. The Standards & RPs gives us is commonality at the rails that’s essential and this allows ANY DCC system to control ANY brand of DCC decoder.
While writing some new pages for DCC for Novices, I thought about two recent converts to DCC that I know about. Both of these model railroaders, along with many others, have well established operating DC layouts with wiring that is nowhere near the standard that is promoted and recommended by all, including me, for DCC. This recommendation is NOT for the actual running of trains (a loco draws 100- 300 mAs) but because a 5 Amp short on all sections of the layout has to be sensed by the Power Pro’s booster, to remove power from the short.
The catalyst for both of these modellers going to DCC was the introduction of a sound loco (a 620/720 or an AD60 QSI equipped model of our local NSW Australian prototype) on their DC layouts. They soon realised that sound brings a whole new dimension to their layouts. Their interest in the hobby has been rekindled and they are having fun, more than ever before, just like a kid with a new toy. Now they wanted sound for their existing favourite DC locos. One of the modellers, I fitted Soundtraxx Tsunami decoders to two of his C36 4-6-0s. He wants more sound. They were bitten, “big time” by the Sound Bug. After operating the Tsunami, they both asked, how hard would it be to connect DCC to their layouts, to get the most of the Tsunamis and QSIs.
Connect an Entry Level DCC system like NCE's US$140 Power Cab to the layout, by switching all the mainline blocks to one Cab, say Cab 1, disconnect Cab 1 from the layout and connect the Power Cabs track connections to the Cab 1’s layout side connections, taking less than 30 minutes.
The Power Cabs current (Amps) capacity of approximately 1.5 Amps and this will operate 2 to 3 sound locos at the same time. Enough power for a single operator home DC layout with the capability for a second operator using any of NCE’s standard throttles, irrespective of the size of the layout. It’s not the size of the layout that determines the capability of whether a system is “big enough”, it is the AMOUNT of locos that are RUNNING at the ONE time.
No layout re-wiring and making their points/turnouts, DCC Friendly, is/was necessary.
It’s that easy.
See below for using a 5 Amp Power Pro system.
Re-wiring, DCC Friendly Points/Turnouts and DCC for existing DC layout.
This topic is about helping existing DC owners to convert their layouts to DCC, so they can enjoy the benefits of DCC with the minimum amount of fuss. This is possible if we don't scare modellers off and explain the options.
There has been plenty of discussion about these two topics. For building a layout from scratch for DCC, yes wiring with the correct gauge wire is essential. Making your points/turnouts DCC Friendly prior to installation is recommended.
For an existing DC layout, providing this, may be impossible or at best, very difficult to achieve.
Imagine how an owner of an existing DC layout that operates fault free to their standards, would feel, when told by us DCCers, or has read in all the DCC books, that if their wiring was smaller than 12 14 AWG, they would need to rewire their layouts. Not many DC layouts are wired with anything this size. Also to have trouble free operation at points/turnouts, all these should be made DCC Friendly. Told this any interest these DC owners had in DCC, would soon disappear, they would feel that DCC is a big joke. They would rightly say they’d be happy with DC if that's what it takes to have DCC. They would be robbed of all the benefits of DCC.
I will try to explain, you can make going to DCC easy or as hard as you like.
Why is it suggested to re-wire a layout?
In DCC a 5 Amp booster supplies the current to operate ALL the locos/trains on the whole layout, where as in DC, the DC Cab only supplies the current for one train approximately 1.0 Amp. A short on any layout creates heat and the current has to interrupted to reduce the chance of any damage. A short in DCC with a 5 Amp system will create approximately 60 watts and in DC approximately 15 to 20 watts. For obvious reasons in DCC with this much heat, it is paramount that the booster can sense a short.
The requirement of heavier gauge wiring on DCC layouts is not so much to run trains, but so a booster can sense the short. Thinner wire has higher resistance value (ohms) per foot than thick wire. Depending on the size of the layout and the gauge of the wire used, the resistance of the wiring may prevent the booster from tripping and removing the power to a short. A short left un-noticed may cause serious damage.
What should an existing layout owner do?
Most shorts on a layout happen at the points/turnouts and many are caused by running into an incorrectly set point/turnout. This is operator error. The benefit of making your points/turnouts DCC Friendly will vary, with each layout. Shorts at these same points/turnouts happened in DC, but in a lot of cases, went un-noticed or the loco had a slight hesitation. Depending on how many shorts will be sensed in DCC will depend on types of wheels being used (may be plastic), if wheel sets are in gauge, the track alignment etc. These shorts may be tolerable for one or two operators.
My recommendation is connect DCC and see what happens. You never know until you try your layout with DCC. You might have two or three shorts for a whole session. Does this warrant all the effort required to make your points/turnouts, DCC Friendly.
For the re-wiring issue, your layout wiring may be ok. A 1.0 to 2.0 Entry Level system like NCE's Power Cab works slightly different than the 5 Amp Power Pro.
My recommendation, connect the system of your choice to the layout, but for a 5 Amp Power Pro prior to operating any trains, carry out the Coin Test by placing a coin or a metal object across the track on ALL sections of the layout and if the booster cuts out then all is ok.
If the booster doesn't cut out, wire up the Power Pro with an 1156 in series with one track feeder as shown below. This will restrict the current to approximately 2.0 Amps but the booster will never shutdown, removing power from the layout. A strategically placed 1156 will provide a great visual indication of a short that will attract someone's attention.
Understanding the issues will have you enjoying the benefits of operating your layout in DCC in less than half an hour. Addressing any problem now can be done at your leisure and you never know, they may not create the hassle that was perceived, prior to connecting the layout to DCC.
Many thanks to Joe Fugate, the DCC 1156 pioneer, for showing us how to use the trusty old incandescent lamp to solve a “high tech” problem. It’s not the first time in DCC that an old lamp saved a new issue.
See other topics in DCC for Novices to help you in your DCC experience.
Look for these features when choosing a DCC system
Listed below are 10 of the most important features I have found, when using my NCE DCC. See how many of these are found in the other DCC systems. Your level of priority will be determined by the way you operate and the type of layout you have. You may not understand what these features are while researching DCC, but many DCC users agree that a lot of these features are important to them, also.
The throttle is your interface to the trains, so the most important criteria when selecting a DCC system is, what does the throttle feel/operate like to.
Try these tasks on your short list of DCC systems throttles. Compare the ease of doing the below operating tasks:
Don’t make you decision on price alone. The cost of the DCC system is only a part of the DCC “experience”.
One of the first terms you will hear when someone talks about DCC, is programming.
Not to be confused with programming a computer that many don't want to do or understand anything about, programming in DCC is just “adjusting” the decoder to fine tune the motor performance, selecting a particular light effect, changing the address, configuring the system etc with what are called “Configuration Variables – see next topic. Do not be put off by this term programming.
All decoders and RTR DCC locos come from the factory with default values for every CV including operating on Address 3 (CV 1 default value). A new “out of the box” DCC equipped loco, or a decoder that you’ve installed into a loco, will work on #3 and will provide more than adequate performance, without any need of programming, just select 3 on the throttle and the loco runs.
To get independent control, you’ll now have to do your first bit of “programming”, you’ll have to change the “address” of at least one of your locos. Using your Power Cab or Power Pro Manual follow the instructions on how to change the address on the Program Track or “On the Main”. Usually the address of a loco/decoder is the number (up to 4 digits) of the loco, on the side of the Cab.
After a short period of time operating your new DCC system, the “black magic” of DCC, will no longer be an issue and you will see that you can fine tune your locos, something that could not be done in DC, by programming. Now programming will be an asset, instead of something that is feared about with DCC.
Programming can be as simple or as complicated as the user wants it.
Decoder Configuration Variables - CVs for short.
At the heart of each decoder is a microcontroller that deciphers information from the DCC track voltage to control the decoder’s Outputs e.g. Motor, lights etc and how the decoder is configured e.g. Address number, operate on DC etc. To adjust how the Microcontroller performs it’s “job”, is done by programming the decoder’s Configuration Variables, CVs for short.
For example in NON Back EMF decoders, the delay of the loco to move off at start up, as soon as the throttle is turned, can be reduced or eliminated by programming CV 2 with a higher value. Similarly a locos top speed can be reduced by programming CV 5 with a lower value.
Configuration Variables for all decoders are grouped in the following categories:
See the NMRA Standards page for the CV lists. Not all current CVs are listed, as decoder manufacturers are always adding their individual CVs to control their particular features.
To comply with the minimum NMRA Standard, all decoders must have the Mandatory CVs that are CV 1 the Short Address, CV 3 and CV 4 the momentum CVs and CV 29 the configuration CV. This minimum standard makes it possible that ALL decoders can be operated by ANY DCC system commonality at the track.
The basic CVs are discussed below.
The “two digit” Short Address, in the range of 1 to 127 for NCE, is stored in CV 1.
Addresses in the range of 128 to 9999 are stored in CVs 17 and 18.
All decoders and RTR locos “out of the box” will have all their CVs at the factory values (default). This will provide adequate running etc and the decoder (loco) will operate on the Short Address of “3”.
A decoder that is not responding correctly or not at all, can be reset to factory settings (default), see each decoder’s Manual to see how to reset them.
Note: The Short Address is typed “3” not “03” or “003” or “0003” For NCE, placing a 0 in front of a 1, 2 or 3 digit number (1-127), makes it a Long address.
CV 7 and CV 8 - the decoder manufacturer and version CVs Essential for Advanced Programming.
These two CVs provide details of the decoder and cannot be changed. Some decoder manufacturers use the CV 8 to reset the decoder. See the section on “Resetting a Decoder”.
CV 7 - Version. This displays the version of software installed in the decoder.
CV 8 Manufacturer ID No. This displays the manufacturers Identification number. The NMRA list here will correlate the number to the manufacturer. This along with CV 7, the version number will allow you to identify a decoder. Especially useful when trying to identify a loco that will allow you to visit the manufactures web site and download the applicable manual.
For example, for an NCE decoder CV 8 shows 11 in CV 8 (NCE’s Manufacturer ID number is “11”) and CV 7 shows 33, indicating decoder software version 3.3. This version does not have Torque Compensation (CVs 116 and 117), whereas version 35 of the later decoders, does. So no point trying to set CV 116 and 117, to fine tune the motor control in a version 33.
Fine tuning the motor, setting the Light Effects of the decoder’s outputs and Function Mapping CANNOT be done, without referring to the manual. All manufacturers use different CVs to control these features. There is no point guessing.
CVs 17 and 18 the Long Address CVs.
Since decoders can have an address between 1 and 9999. Addresses in the range of 128 to 9999 have to be stored in two CVs.
For example when you need to program a loco with a Long Address, this can be done by either programming modes:
Using the Program Track, use “1=STD” option
Using “On the Main – POM” mode, use “1=STD” option.
For both modes of programming all that has to be entered is the actual loco number and the Command Station will automatically work out the applicable values for CVs 17 & 18. For example for an address of “4836”, the system will program CV 17 with “210” and CV 18 with “228”.
There is what I consider a complicated method of working out the values of CV 17 and 18 for a particular address that can lead to mistakes that I have seen on the Yahoo groups in programming a loco that resulted in the loco not moving after programming. In the event that you need to find out the values of CV 17 and 18, program the desired address into a loco using the above methods and then reading CV 17 and 18 on the Program Track using 2 = CV option. Alternatively use this CV 17 & 18 Calculator
Programming the long address of QSI locos using POM may be unsuccessful and if you try to read CVs on the Program Track you may get the CANNOT READ CV message. See the topic on Programming the locos address and what does CANNOT READ CV message mean?
CV29 - The Configuration Variable CV – CFG
This is one of the most important CVs in the decoder. This is where you set up what you want the decoder to do and which address to respond to.
At the 3 = CFG option you will be prompted for:
If you ever need to program CV 29 at the 2 = CV option you have to know the value of your combination above. Some values are:
For all the combinations, see the decoder and the system manuals.
The Address - What does it mean and types?
To allow for individual control in DCC, each loco has its own decoder, that is programmed with its own unique address, normally the loco road number. To operate that loco, the address is entered into the throttle with whatever the operator wants the loco to do (command). This address and command, form what is called a “DCC Packet”. The booster adds power to this packet, which is then transmitted to all parts of the layout. All decoders (locos) are listening and only the decoder with the matching address responds to the command.
It is this matching address scenario that gives DCC, its individual loco operation.
Most decoders now come with three types of addresses:
In most cases, DCC users use the Long 4 digit addresses to control their locos, e.g. 3801, 5335 etc. Use the short address for operating locos like the Austrains NRs e.g. NR52 NR60 NR109 etc.
There are times when two or more locos may intentionally move at once - consisting. See the notes on consisting later.
A decoder is programmed to adjust how the microprocessor, the heart/brains of a decoder, what it responds to and how it controls its outputs, the motor, lights, if applicable, sounds etc. For a DCC system and its components, they can be programmed to be set up each system or component like a throttle, in different ways, to best suit the individual. Working with the system manual, will provide all the options and what to program to give these features. What can be programmed for the decoders and system, are:
In the event of something going wrong when programming, the user may think that he has damaged the decoder because the loco does not respond. No damage is done, the decoder is just confused. Normal operation can be restored by resetting the decoder. For many decoders including NCE, place the loco on the Program Track and program CV 30 with 2. See the decoder manual. All CVs will be returned to the default values, where communications will allow the user to start over again. Note: After a reset the operating address is short address 3.
Systems and components can be similarly reset, see the manual.
Types of Decoder Programming:
There are a few modes of programming a decoder: Paged, Direct, Register, etc, to change a CV but the two terminologies we are familiar with NCE, are:
As you become used to programming, you’ll free yourself from the MYTH that you program all the locos that are on the track that a lot of people still think can happen when POM is used and the NEED to read a CV that you just programmed, really happened, you will find POM is the most convenient type of programming.
Utilize one of the most powerful features of DCC, as of Jan 2012 most decoders support POM.
The pros and cons of each type are:
The Initial Programming of a newly installed decoder.
The Program Track is current limited.
A mistake made while wiring up a decoder could cause a short circuit that may damage a decoder when the loco was placed on a powered track. If a “faulty wired” loco is placed on the Program Track instead of on the layout, the current limited output of the Program Track would eliminate this short circuit from damaging the decoder. Instead of a “normal” display, the Procab will display something like “Short Circuit etc”, alerting the operator that there is something wrong with the installation.
It is for this reason, all NEW installations should be checked on the Program Track using the “1 = STD”, “2 = CV” option.
A correctly installed decoder will result with a displayed value at either of the above programming options. If the message CANNOT READ CV shows, then there may be a fault with the wiring or for another reason - see the section, what does CANNOT READ CV mean?
Programming the address of a loco.
In a lot of cases, the first time user of DCC, this will be their first experience at programming to provide independent control. Using either of the below programming options, NCE makes it really easy by working out the correct CV values for the appropriate CVs for the desired address. Nothing to work out, its all done by the system automatically by following the prompts at:
1. On the Program Track - using 1 = STD option and follow the prompts. The same as what I call the Initial Check of a new decoder installation.
Note: If you get the CANNOT READ CV message while programming a sound loco, you’ll need a Program Track booster from Soundtraxx. For the time being, just press ENTER on this message, but only if you are sure there are no faults with the decoder installation. For more details see the section on “What does CANNOT READ CV mean?”
2. On the Main - Operate the loco usually by 3 the default short address and selecting 1 = ADR then 1 = LONG or 2 = Short then type the desired Address.
Note: For QSI equipped locos, prior to using POM to change the address, turn off the decoder’s Verbal Acknowledgement by programming CV 62 to 0, otherwise this won’t work.
In a lot of cases, the loco will have the DC running, turned OFF. If the loco needs to be operated on a DC layout, CV 29 will have to be programmed to either 6 or 38 if programming for a short or long address respectively. NCE recommends all decoders to be set with the DC (or analogue) running OFF. For more details, see either: the CV 29 topic below, the decoder or system manual or this CV 29 Calculator
Basic Programming of a loco your desired long address, better loco starting and lights.
A decoder including sound ones, will work quite satisfactorily on their default settings. So the only programming that’s REALLY necessary, is to change the Address of the decoder that’ll give us independent control and isn’t that the basis of going to DCC.
To change the address for NCE it is easy. Select the Program Track – PROG/ESC then “4”, then press ENTER, then at the “1=STD 2=CV 3=CFG” display, press “1” for a “STANDARD” program and follow the prompts. When using a 4 digit (or Long) address, the Command Station will work out the values for CV 17 and CV 18 automatically for the Long Address.
So how hard is it to program a loco? Not hard at all. What's all the hype about? You certainly don't need to know how to program a computer or a degree in programming, to program a loco in DCC.
To reduce or eliminate the locos delay on take off, program CV 2 - Volts Start, higher. This single adjustment will dramatically improve the starting performance of the loco. Add some Momentum (Acceleration - CV 3 and Deceleration - CV 4) for more realistic operation, especially great for a mainline loco.
If the default setting did not provide the desired lighting effect program the relevant CVs (see the decoder Manual). For NCE, CVs 120 and 121, need to programmed.
What happens when reading CVs on the Program Track?
When you want to read the value of a CV, the Command Station sends a command to the decoder where the decoder pulses the motor according to the value of the CV. The current flowing from the Command Station during this pulsing of the motor is interpreted by the Command Station as the value for the requested CV and is displayed on the Procab.
With two decoders, both would be pulsing its own motor or speaker, causing more current to flow from the Command Station providing an incorrect value. So any read of dual decoder installations, the value would be wrong and certainly would not represent the value of ANY of the two CVs that were being read.
Programming the address or any CV of sound locos on the Program Track.
When using the Program Track, to program any decoder, after entering the CV number you want to program, the system reads the decoder for the currently programmed value.
Due to the increased Inrush Current of sound decoders, you may get the CANNOT READ CV message that prevents reading ANY CV values. When this is displayed the users has to decide what can be done:
Note: Reading a CV value is NOT a requirement for programming a decoder, so if you are sure that this above message is NOT caused by a faulty installation, bad connection or dirty track/wheels. Press ENTER at this message and type in the desired value.
For more details, see what does the message “CANNOT READ CV” mean, see below.
What does the message “CANNOT READ CV” mean, when on the Program Track.
The Program Track on the NCE Power Pro/Powerhouse Pro etc and many other DCC systems are current “limited” to 250 mAs as per the NMRA Standards. This figure was determined many years ago and before sound decoders were available, to protect the decoder/Command Station in the event that a “new” decoder installation where there was a “short circuit” caused from incorrect wiring etc.
If you see this “CANNOT READ CV” message on your Procab when attempting to program a loco on the Program Track, the cause could be due to:
With the Program Track SELECTED on your Procab (PROG/ESC 4 times and then ENTER) with the display showing “PROG TRK 1=STD 2=CV 3=CFG”, a digital Multimeter with A.C. Volts selected should indicate 10.0 to 14.0 Volts A.C. If not, there is a problem with the wiring to the Program Track. If a “Changeover” Switch similar to what’s shown in the Manual is installed, this would be a good place to start. Also check the 2 wires in the Plug connecting to the Power Pro “Program Track” terminals, are secured.
Check the decoder installation for loose or broken wires. The wires under the Black “Tabs” on DCC Ready locos at the Circuit Board or the 8 Pin NMRA Plug/Socket, are a constant source of poor connection. LOOK here.
Irrespective of how clean the wheels of the loco are or the Program Track, CLEAN them. I have seen many shiny wheels cause this message.
A faulty “installation” where the wiring from the decoder to the loco “terminals” is incorrect. Depending on which wires are incorrect/swapped around, there could be a short circuit. Check and re-check the wiring comparing it to the Instruction Manual.
A faulty decoder will quite often give this indication. Inspect the decoder for evidence of burning etc. If all the “connections are okay, replace the decoder.
See the below Topic on “The Sound Decoder Problem.
The Sound decoder problem:
The Program Track on the NCE Power Pro/Powerhouse Pro etc and many other DCC systems are current “limited” to 250 mAs as per the NMRA Standards. This figure was determined many years ago and before sound decoders were available, to protect the decoder/Command Station in the event that a “new” decoder installation where there was a short circuit, providing a very handy feature.
Sound equipped locos are becoming popular and maybe this is your first attempt to “program” a sound equipped loco on the Program Track. The first instruction when programming a decoder on the Program Track is to tell the decoder to “pulse” the Motor according to the CV value and the Command Station interprets the pulses of power and displays the value on the Procab’s display. Sound decoders have more Capacitors and are of a higher value (capacitance) than NON sound decoders. When power is first applied to the sound equipped loco due to the higher “capacitance”, the Command Station interprets the Inrush Current (higher than the 250 mAs mentioned above) as the Capacitors are “charged” the Capacitors, as a “short circuit” and hence the “CANNOT READ CV message.
With this 250 mAs current limit on the Program Track, a couple of manufacturers have produced Program Track Boosters to overcome this “inability” of reading Sound decoder CVs. Soundtraxx with their PTB-100 Program Track Booster and Tony’s with their Power Pax.
What can be done if you don’t have a Program Track Booster?
At the “CANNOT READ CV” message during programming, just write the value that you want after pressing ENTER The system will accept the value and write it to the CV. You will not be able read CVs but you will be able to program the loco. Alternatively use Programming On the Main POM, to program your loco.
With sound locos becoming more popular since Broadway Limited released RTR locos with QSI chips, DCC operators cannot read the value of CVs, install a PTB-100 or a Power Pax Program Track Booster and wired between the Power Pro and the Program Track. These allow users to read CVs of sound locos.
Reading CVs is not a prerequisite of programming a loco. You can completely program a loco using the “Program on the Main” - POM (Operations) mode of programming, including changing to the 4 digit long address, without reading a CV.
The procedure to adjust the volumes of a sound decoder, you guessed it, they’re all different, so you’ll need to know who made the decoder. If you don’t know the brand, read CV 8 and look up the value in the NMRA Manufacturers List, at:
http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/mfgnumbers.html
For the following brands/models, program the CVs:
Soundtraxx: CV 128 – 1 to 255 (default 192).
Loksound V3.5: CV 63 to 1 - 64 (default 64).
Select & V4.0: CV 63 to 1 - 192 (Default 180).
QSI: Program CV 49 to 0 then CV 51 to 0 - 127 (default 127).
For adjusting the individual volumes, see the appropriate Manual.
For determining the loco current for a DCC decoder Use Slipping current not Stall current.
A loco motor would only ever STALL if the gearbox jammed up or there was some mechanical fault with the driveline. How often does this happen, hardly ever, I’ve never had it happen to me in the 20 or so years I’ve been playing with trains. After questioning others that have been in the hobby a lot longer than me, say that it only rarely happens.
Why base the decoder current selection on a scenario that “rarely” if at all, happens.
A situation that happens regularly, is the loco stalls on a hill or runs into a stationary train etc. In this case the wheels will be spinning.
There is a big difference in current (amps) between a “slipping” or a “stalled” motor. The SLIPPING current can be as little as ¼ of the “stall” current. For example my NSW 45 Class diesel, Slipping Current = 320 mAs and the Stall Current = 1.4 Amps (1,400 mAs).
Using the above example, using the STALL Current value, I would have to use a 1.3 Amp D13SR or similar. Using the SLIPPING Current value, I could use a 1.0 Amp Z14SR Amp decoder or a 0.5 Lenz Gold Mini. The advantages here are enormous if space is at a premium. Using the same set of figures, I could not fit a Soundtraxx 1.0 Amp DSD-100LC or the latest 1.0 Amp Tsunami or the .75 Amp Tsunami Micro decoders. I am aiming to fit sound to all of my locos, so I would be in a bind if I used the STALL current value.
Many decoder now have overload protection and in some cases, shutdown when the decoder overheats. These types of protection are there to cover the worst possible cases.
Some decoder manufacturers have removed the word STALL in their instructions and use the words Continuous and Peak (Stall), as is the case with NCE.
So use the SLIPPING Continuous current for determining the decoder Current Rating.
Bye the way, Almost 90% of my locos have 1.0 Amp sound decoders and they are still operating 3 to 4 years later. More than half of the fleet have “stall” currents in excess of 1.3 Amps. Most modellers that are using Soundtraxx DSD and Tsunami sound decoders are exceeding the specifications of the decoder, with no reports of damaging decoders due to normal every day running.
Is Left & Right Rail applicable to DCC during decoder installation?
Courtesy of Mark Gurries on NCE-DCC Yahoo group – May 30, 2007.
The NMRA DC polarity convention covering rail polarity is:
A “Positive” rail polarity on the Engineer's Side of the locomotive with the engine Facing Forward, will result in Forward motion.
This allowed standardization of direction between multiple manufactures of DC locomotives. Hence when you MU multiple brands of DC locomotive on the track, they will all move in the same direction.
Most DCC decoders support DC mode, if turned on, so people can continue to run decoder equipped locomotives on a DC layout. As such, if you plan to run your decoder equipped locomotive on DC, you should follow the same rail polarity rules if you plan to have this locomotive MU with standard DC locomotives or other Decoder equipped locomotives. The red wire goes to the positive rail as described by the rule.
If you never plan to run DC on this locomotive, it does not matter how you connect the red and black wires to the rails in terms of which goes to which rail. Direction of the locomotive is controlled by the decoder and not the rail polarity.
The NMRA 8 pin DCC Ready Plug.
Manufactures of loco have been terminating the wiring in a loco from the Pick Ups, Motor and Lights (if installed) to a plug. In an effort to standardize this, the NMRA has provided a standard 8 pin plug for HO. This will allow the easy installation of a DCC decoder. For DC operation, this 8 Pin Plug/Socket has a DC Bridging Plug installed. This 8 Pin Plug/Socket is normally part of the loco’s Light Board and normally use Diodes for constant lighting with normally 1.5 volt incandescent lamps. If fitting a DCC decoder these 1.5 volt lamps will be damaged if the decoder is fitted without installing a voltage dropping resistor for these lamps. The decoders function operating voltage is about 12 14 volts DC.
For
details, see Streamlined
Backshop web site page on “Electrical Interface”
for details of the 8 Pin DCC Ready Plug.
Looking at the plug from the socket side, the pins are numbered as I have notated them in the diagram. I have seen numbers on these plugs that are not correct, so please check the wires go to the right pins according to the photo below.
For the original wiring of the loco, it is not unusual to see just red and black wires. There maybe NO colour coding for the original loco wiring. The table below relates to the DCC decoder wiring colours that the manufacturers have standardized.
Note: The black caps on the DCC Ready Plus are a confirmed source of bad connections. If you are having problems with intermittent operation, please check these first. I have even seen where the insulation has not even been removed or loose strands of wire poking out from underneath these caps and touching the motor. This shows up as a short when trying to program the loco.
This plug is so designed that the decoder can be inserted 180 degrees out, and the decoder will not be damaged, the loco may go the wrong direction and the lights will not work as the lamp common, is connected to the pin 3, the optional connection.
The connections to pins 4 and 8 to the track pickups can be reversed. This will not cause any problems in DCC. Reversing the connections to the motor will reverse the direction of the motor as this is DC power.
Note: The wiring to this DCC Ready Plug was incorrect on the Austrains 442 and lots of NRs that will DAMAGE the decoder. Check carefully.
Programming the Long Address.
For Sound locos including QSI equipped locos, see below.
4 digit addressing enables users to use the loco road number as the address thus reducing all the hassles associated with remembering which two digits to use when addressing the locos.
This can be done a few ways and will depend whether you are programming a RTR loco with a chip installed or a loco you have installed a chip into, using:
Note: Sound locos may cause the Procab to display CANNOT READ CV message when using the Program Track.
I find after checking a RTR locos operation on the default address of 3, the easiest way to program the Long Address is to use the 1 = ADR option using POM. This confirms that we have communication with the loco decoder (its running) and that the correct values of CVs 17 18 and 29 will be programmed into the decoder. On completion, the Procab shows ADDR and your new 4 digit number and you are now operating the loco with your new Long Address.
Note: CV 29 will be programmed with 34 that will disable DC operation of the loco. If you want to run your loco on DC, program CV 29 to 38 prior to using the loco on a DC layout otherwise you will have to reset the loco with the wand when you arrive at the DC layout, as the loco will not operate.
Note: Using the 1 = ADR option on QSI equipped locos see below.
Programming the Long Address for QSI Equipped locos.
Many modellers will have programmed decoders previously, without any issues including changing the address.
With the QSI, that’ll be some modeller’s first venture into sound, the following may happen:
Using the Program Track, selecting the “1=STD” option the “Cannot Read CV” message may be displayed while reading CVs during programming.
Using “On the Man – POM” mode, selecting “1=ADR” option, the loco makes sounds but does NOT move.
The easiest method to program the new address is to use the Program Track
On the Program Track, select “1=STD” option.
When the system tries to read a CV, it displays the “Cannot Read CV” message.
Press ENTER to ignore the message.
Type in the desired address.
The address change will happen.
NOTE: While this above “ignoring” the message for a loco that operates on address 3 is okay, DO NOT ignore this “Cannot Read CV” message when testing a decoder installation that you have done, there may be a short circuit in the loco you have just installed a decoder in and if this loco is placed on the Main, you may damage the decoder.
What are the reasons for the above idiosyncrasies?
The “Cannot Read CV message: The high “Inrush” Current when power is applied to a sound decoder, exceeds the DCC system’s “limited” Program Track Current and the system thinks/sees this as a short circuit. These limits were set many years prior to the advent of sound decoders. Fitting a Program Track Booster, like the Soundtraxx PTB-100, eliminates this “Cannot Read CVs” message and will return a value, when the system asks for a “read”. Many owners including me, purchase a PTB-100 and all then is okay on the Program Track. NOTE Other manufacturer’s sound decoder’s like those from Soundtraxx, Loksound etc will need the Program Track Booster.
The “On the Main –POM” lack of loco movement: To change the address of a loco, 3 (three) CVs have to be programmed/changed. With the QSI, while this “POM 1=ADR” procedure is being done, the QSI’s announces the values (Verbal Acknowledgement) and MISSES the instruction to program the 3rd (third) CV, in this case CV 29. CV 29 needs to be re-programmed so the loco responds to the Long Address (values in CV 17 & 18), instead of responding to the Short Address of “3”. Turning OFF the QSI’s Verbal Acknowledgment (CV 62 to “0”) will prevent the announcements and CV 29 will be programmed with a value of “38” (DC operation enabled).
NOTE: If you have done a RESET of your QSI equipped loco (CV49 to 128, CV50 to 255 & CV 56 to 113), the Verbal Acknowledgement will be turned ON.
Reading QSI CVs with Decoder Pro.
Thanks to Ollie Mayes on the QSI Yahoo group on April 6, 2009.
When you select Service Mode Programming, the Service Mode Programming Setup windows opens in the Page mode. Select an engine and open the Programmer window. It opens in the Direct Byte mode. No matter what mode is selected in the setup window the Programmer opens in the Direct Byte mode.
Change this window to Page mode, and you’ll be able to read the CVs.
With an NCE Power Pro unit and a PTB-100 Program Track Booster (Soundtraxx), I don’t have any problem reading CVs of a QSI.
Programming QSIs including Indexed CVs
Programming some of the QSIs CVs, is the same as what we are used to, just select the CV and program the decimal value, but for other CVs, QSI uses what they call Indexed CVs as there were not enough available CVs to cover all the required adjustments. Quite ingenious, but a new way of programming CVs that is a little hard to understand and certainly more difficult to implement.
These Indexed CVs are CVs 51, 52 and 56. Depending on the CV, they ALL have a “Primary Index” (First Pointer) and SET in CV 49.
Some Indexed CVs have on top of the Primary Index (set in CV 49), they have a Secondary Index (Second Pointer), SET in CV 50.
Programming Examples of Indexed CVs:
NOTE: The NCE Procab can program QSI Indexed CVs that use only a Primary (P.I.), using POM’s Option 8 (QSI Sound). Indexed CVs using BOTH the Primary AND Secondary Indexes, CANNOT be programming using this method.
To determine the correct decimal value for a particular effect, you must use the QSI Q1a DCC Reference Manual Version 4.0.2 for Firmware 7 by Bit Weighting where you choose the effect and give the 1s and 0s their relevant bit weight for an 8 bit word. For some modellers, including me, this can be a little difficult to work out, similar to determining what value to program into Soundtraxx DSD and DSX CVs, using the Technical manuals.
An easier way to program these Indexed CVs, is to use Decoder Pro.
AD60 Headlights Programming Indexed CVs example.
Programming the headlights for the AD60 to auto reversing headlights is an example of programming Indexed CVs with a total of 6 CVs needing programming. To do this, program the following CVs to:
Adjusting the Volume of QSIs with CVs including the AD60 including Individual Sounds Levels.
This requires programming Indexed CVs. In this case two CVs will have to be programmed.
Overall Volume of the QSIs can be adjusted 3 ways.
1. Easily adjusted by using the Wand if the QSI chip supports the wand.
2. Using POM, programme both CV 49 to 0 and then CV 51 to between 0 no sound to 127 - max sound.
3. For NCE, using POM by using option 8 - QSI Sound. At the moment the Procab can only set CVs 51, 52 and 56.
· Using POM and on the menus, scroll through to 8 = QSI Sound. Press 8 and Enter.
· At the CV prompt, enter 51 for the CV.
· It will then prompt for the Primary Index, in this case enter 0 (CV 49 value from above).
· Now enter 0 to 127 for the appropriate volume.
Programming Individual Sound Volume levels.
|
Primary Index Entered into CV 49. |
Individual Sound |
Default. |
|
0 |
Whistle |
11 |
|
8 |
Bell (not in AD60) |
11 |
|
10 |
Chuff (Steam exhaust) |
11 |
|
16 |
Pump 1 |
11 |
|
19 |
Blower (hiss) |
8 |
|
21 |
Long Air Let-off |
11 |
|
22 |
Short Air Let-off |
11 |
|
24 |
Squealing Brakes |
11 |
|
26 |
Dynamo |
11 |
|
29 |
Boiler Pop-off |
11 |
|
30 |
Boiler Blow-down |
11 |
|
31 |
Water Injector |
11 |
|
34 |
Coupler Sounds |
11 |
These CVs are Indexed CVs with a P.I. From the table (left) enter the desired individual sound value into CV 49 and then program CV 52 as follows:
0 for No Sound, 1 15 sets the volume level, from the lowest level at 1 to the highest at 15 into CV 52.
For example, changing the whistle level to the highest volume = 15, from the default 11, to make it louder.
CV 49 set to 0 and
CV 52 set to 15.
Using the Heavy Load feature.
One of the greatest features of the QSI chip in the Eureka Models AD60 Garratts, in fact any QSI decoder, is the "Heavy Load" feature. This feature is selected by using F9 on the throttle. If your DCC throttle can only support 8 functions, then the Heavy Load will have to be re-mapped. See manual.
Basically while operating the loco as you start to climb the grade on the layout, press F9 - one short Toot from the loco. Now when increasing the throttle, the sound gets louder, simulating a labouring loco. Decrease the throttle and the sound gets softer, simulating a coasting loco. Press F7 will engage the Air Brakes/Wheel Flange sounds. All the time the "Heavy Load" is engaged, the loco maintains the same speed.
Back on the flat with the throttle near the original position prior to engaging "Heavy Load", press F9 - two short Toots and the "Heavy Load" feature is set to OFF and the loco returns to normal control with the throttle.
Adjusting the Chuff Rate - CV 56.12.
This is another indexed CV. CV 56 is the CV you program with the value (10 to 100), AFTER programming CV 49 (the “pointer” CV) with “12”.
Alternatively the NCE Procab can program Indexed CVs by using POM and using Option 8 = QSI sound.
Resetting a Decoder.
Every now and then a decoder gets confused and wont respond or has some form of irregular operation. Many problems with decoders are solved by resetting the decoder. These range from:
If at any time, a loco does not work, firstly suspect that it is still in a consist. Read the value of CV 19 and it should display 0. If it reads “0”, do reset of the decoder on the Program Track. Most, if not all CVs will be set to their factory defaults
Reset Procedure:
Note: After a reset, the loco will ONLY respond to the short address of 3.
Place loco on the Program Track and program the appropriate CV with the value stated below.
NCE CV 30 with 2 or use the Program Track Menu Option 7 “RECOVERY PROGRAMMING”.
Soundtraxx
CV 30 with 2 or CV 8 to 8 and cycle
the power.
Econami - CV 8 to 8 (See Econami Users Guide for partial Resets).
QSI CV 49 to 128, CV 50 to 255 and CV 56 to 113 or hold the Wand over the Reed Switch and apply power, see below.
Loksound
CV 8 with 8.
Zimo CV 8 with 8.
Digitrax CV 8 with 8.
TCS CV 30 with 2 or CV 8 with 2 and cycle power.
Lenz CV 8 with 33.
Note: If you cannot get your QSI equipped loco moving after you “killed” (cleared) a Consist, click here.
These decoders require more than the write 2 to CV 30 reset of all my other locos except Lenz and Loksound (8 into CV 8). Resetting the QSIs locos can be done by two methods:
Step by Step
Procedure to RESET a QSI using NCE and on the Program Track.
1. Place loco on
the Program Track.
2. Press PROG/ESC
Button 4 times until the displays shows “Program Track”
3. Press ENTER
and “1=STD 2=CV 3=CFG” is displayed.
4. Press “2” for
CVs.
5. The Prompt for
CV Number to be programmed.
6. Press “4” then
“9” (to program CV 49), then ENTER.
7. Display shows
“WAIT” while the Command Station reads CV 49.
8. Display now
shows “000”
9. Overwrite
“000” with “128” then press ENTER.
10. Display now
waits for the next CV Number.
11. Press “5” then
“0” (to program CV 50), then press ENTER.
12. Display shows
“WAIT” while the Command Station reads CV 50.
13. Display now
shows “000”.
14. Overwrite
“000” with “255” then press ENTER.
15. Display now
waits for the next CV Number.
16. Press “5” then
“6” (to program CV 56), then press ENTER.
17. Display shows
“WAIT” while the Command Station attempts to read CV 50.
18. After about 20
seconds, the “CANNOT READ CV” message is displayed.
19. PRESS ENTER to
“ignore” the message.
20. Press “1” then
“1” then “3” (to program CV 56 with a value of “113”), then press ENTER.
21. Display now
waiting for you to enter the next CV Number.
22. Press PROG/ESC
button 3 times to get the normal operating window.
23. Place loco
onto the MAINLINE to operate.
24. Dial up loco
Number “3” then ENTER.
25. Loco should
announce “RESET” and it should move.
Changing the Address of a QSI equipped Loco.
Many modellers will have programmed decoders previously without an issue including changing the decoder/loco’s address.
With the QSI, that’ll be some modeller’s first venture into sound, the following may happen:
Using the Program Track and selecting the “1=STD” option, the “Cannot Read CV” message may be displayed while reading CVs during programming.
Using “On the Man – POM” mode and selecting the “1=ADR” option, you find the loco makes sounds but does NOT move.
The easiest method to program the new address is to use the Program Track
Using the Program Track, select “1=STD” option. If the “Cannot Read CV” message is displayed, press ENTER to ignore the message and type in the desired address. The address change will happen.
NOTE: While this above “ignoring” the message for a loco that operates on address 3 is okay, DO NOT ignore this “Cannot Read CV” message when testing a decoder installation that you have done, there may be a short circuit in the loco you have just installed a decoder in and if this loco is placed on the Main, you may damage the decoder.
What are the reasons for the above idiosyncrasies?
The “Cannot Read CV message: The current from the Program Track is “limited” to protect the decoder in the event there is a short circuit from an incorrectly installed decoder. The “Inrush” Current during the charging of the Capacitors in the sound decoders, exceeds the DCC system’s Program Track “limited” current and the system thinks/sees this as a short circuit. These limits were set many years prior to the advent of sound decoders. Fitting a Program Track Booster, like the Soundtraxx PTB-100, eliminates this “Cannot Read CVs” message and will return a value, when the system asks for a “read”. Many owners including me purchase a PTB-100 and all then is okay on the Program Track. NOTE Other manufacturer’s sound decoder’s like those from Soundtraxx, Loksound etc will need the Program Track Booster.
The “On the Main –POM” lack of loco movement: To change the address of a loco, 3 (three) CVs have to be programmed/changed. With the QSI, while this “POM 1=ADR” procedure is being done, the QSI’s Verbal Acknowledgment’s feature announces the values and MISSES the instruction to program the 3rd (third) CV, in this case CV 29. CV 29 needs to be re-programmed so the loco responds to the Long Address (values in CV 17 & 18), instead of responding to the Short Address of “3”. Turning OFF the QSI’s Verbal Acknowledgment (CV 62 to “0”), will prevent the announcements and CV 29 will be programmed with a value of “38” (DC operation enabled).
NOTE: If you have done a RESET of your QSI equipped loco (CV49 to 128, CV50 to 255 & CV 56 to 113), the Verbal Acknowledgement will be turned ON.
QSI equipped locos resetting on layout “Power Up” & Volume changing as the loco passes another loco.
If a QSI equipped loco announces “Reset” when the layout is powered up and then does not operate on its previously programmed Address, the Reed Switch has failed in the “Closed” position and the loco has Reset as soon as power is applied to the loco.
Another issue with the QSI Reed Switches, is that they can be operated by the strong magnetic fields found in some of the later Can Motors as two loco pass on adjacent track or if the decoder is in close proximity to a DC Un-Coupler.
In these above cases, the Reed Switch has to be disabled for “normal” operation. This can be done by:
CV 49 to “0”
CV 56 to “128”
Easily done with Decoder Pro using the Sound Tab.
With the Reed Switch disabled, you will not be able to use the Magnetic Wand (Resetting, Volumes etc). To enable it again if the Reed Switch has NOT “jammed” closed, program:
CV 49 to “0”
CV 56 to “0”.
Loksound - Auto Tune of the Motor for V4.0 &
Selects.
Program
CV 54 with “0”.
Place
loco on the Main with 300 – 450 mm of straight track, with FWD selected.
Press
F1.
Loco
will move off a full speed.
Loco
will stop after 5 seconds or so and the Bell will be ringing.
Press
F1.
The
decoder will adjust the Motor CVs (CVs 51 to 56).
The Loco goes the wrong direction after the installation of a decoder.
A common problem and this is due to:
Note: It does NOT matter which of the track pickups the red and black decoder wires connect to, as this does not control the direction in a DCC loco. The DCC track voltage is rectified inside the decoder.
Changing the direction can be altered by two procedures.
When you do a reset of a loco, it will give the direction bit value in CV 29 is 0 - NORMAL direction. A loco where the direction was changed electronically by adding 1 to the CV 29 value, the loco will go in the REVERSE direction after a reset.
I recommend changing the wires because of this reset scenario.
For NCE you can change the CV 29 value at either the 2 = CV or the 3 = CFG selections during programming in either the Program Track mode or POM mode.
Why doesn't the loco go.
DCC is a 5 to 8,500 Hz square wave A.C. signal, which the microprocessor in the decoder has to decipher, to issue speed commands and function selection continuously for the decoder to operate. Sometimes the decoder does get confused for some reason. A reported common problem and it has happened to me is that when there is a short on the layout, the decoder acts strangely with some funny result. Sometimes the address CVs are affected which will prevent communication with the decoder. This is seen as a locked up decoder. Sometimes this lock up could have been caused by Operator Error.
What should we do to correct this lockup or loco not operating situation? I have listed a few things below:
If the loco still does not work after checking the above, place the loco on the Program Track and read the following CVs.
Note: Ensure acknowledgement of programming command by the small movement of the loco.
If all else fails to get the loco to work, do a Reset.
When a reset is done, the decoder will ONLY respond to the short address of 3. You will have to reprogram the long 4 digit address if that was being used any CVs that you changed to fine tune motor and lights.
For both NCE TCS and Soundtraxx, to reset decoders, select CV 30, enter value of 2 and cycle power.
For NCE system users you can also do this at the Program Track and select option 7 Recovery Programming with the new EPROM.
Why is the locos top speed lower in DCC than in DC prior to fitting a decoder?
I have observed and many others have reported that when they’ve install a decoder into a loco, the loco goes much slower at Top Speed in DCC than what it did in DC.
Depending on the type of DC Power Pack (Controller) being used, while they are rated at 12 Volts DC, they put out much more than 12 Volts. Many especially the early types provide an “unregulated” DC supply provided by a suitable drop down Transformer, Rectifier and then some form of Rheostat. Later Power Packs had simple electronics instead of the Rheostat. In both cases these Packs the “12” Volts supplied to the Rheostat/Electronics was not REGULATED and provided voltages up to 20 Volts DC. Later more complex electronic Power Packs provided regulated 12 Volts DC. These units would provide a maximum of 12 to 14 Volts DC.
For DCC equipped locos, I measured some decoder motor outputs for some comparison test to see why the locos ran slower in DCC to DC.
Test Conditions:
Listed below are the DC voltages at the Motor Terminals while operating:
With 14.2 Volts applied to the track, this shows that the decoder electronics "drop" between 1 to 3 volts. This I would consider normal. Inside the decoder, the electronics has a bridge rectifier and transistors/FETs etc to make the DC for the PWM motor drive voltage etc, that have "voltage drops" across them.
With a voltage to the Motor in DCC being in the range 11.6 to 13.0 Volts DC when compared to what the same motor had in DC, 12.0 to 20.0 Volts DC, there could be a verly large variation up to 100% higher for DC. No wonder the loco goes faster in DC.
One other thing to consider in "top speed" running, is the DCC track voltage. NCE is operating at 14.2 Volts DCC, the "nominal" NMRA recommendation for HO. Of the other U.S. made DCC systems, some operate around the same 14.2 volts DCC but others operate with a higher voltage. I have measured 22.5 Volts DCC on a European DCC system. The Europeans seem to want their locos to go "faster". Have you noticed how bright the incandescent headlights are on these systems or they have blown.
A note on Top Speed I have never understood, if the prototype of the model you have went at 100 MPH, why you would want the model to go at 100 scale MPH. That would be 3 feet in 1.75 seconds and 30 feet in 17.5 seconds. I guess some people have extremely long layouts, but for me I want the "operating" experience to last a little longer and with my track laying abilities, I would have to install safety nets around the layout. These above speeds are for toy trains, not for the serious modellers that go to added expense of using DCC to “play” trains.
I have visited the La Mesa Club’s Tehachapi Loop layout in San Diego that is 125 feet long and operated on some “smaller” layouts when I attended the NMRA 2011 Convention in San Jose/Sacramento USA and many layouts here in Australia (not quite as big as the Tehachapi Loop layout) and not once did I see a train “driven” at more than 30 MPHs. These observations and my own personal preference, why would anyone want to operate a train at greater than 30 scale MPH, in HO.
I have reduced the Top Speed of all of my locos to 30 MPH, see My 30 MPH Max Speed Table and my Blog entry.
Functions and Outputs.
A decoder, on top of its motor control and sound circuitry if applicable, have Functions. The amount of functions varies but most have at least two. The common effect for these two functions, are headlights. Many decoders have more, like the 3 function D13SR and the 4 function D14SR etc.
Each function can be programmed to one of many different effects. See the EFX Lighting Effects table of your NCE decoder manual. Decoders from all decoder manufacturers have the same arrangement, but not necessarily the same effects as NCE and they certainly use different CV numbers for their effects.
The NCE decoder uses these CVs:
The current capacity of the function must be considered when connecting a light or other load. At the moment NCE decoders are providing only 40 mAs outputs. If you connect say an 80mAs lamp, this will overload the circuitry and will most probably damage the Function Output transistor/FET etc. So be careful when connecting lamps. No more than 40 mAs.
Selecting Functions on NCE throttles.
An alternative “one finger” method of accessing F10 to F28, is to program the “OPTION” button with “122” in the Cab Address (Press SELECT LOCO while plugging in and follow the prompts ‘till “PROG OPTION KEY is displayed or for more details, see the Manual.
Press “OPTION” button ONCE then 1 to 0 for F10 to F19 or press “OPTION” Button TWICE then 0 to 9 for F20 to F28.
To see what Functions have be operated or the state of all the Functions, press the EXPN button. Not available if operating in Radio as this EXPN button accesses the Radio Set Up Menu.
Operation of Functions when in Consists.
When locos are Consisted (MUed), Functions eg. Headlights, Horn/Whistle, Dynamic Brakes etc (sound locos) can be configured to be used or NOT be used. For example if two/three diesels are consisted together only the Headlights at the “end” of the lashup, should illuminate while the “facing” Headlights should remain extinguished. Same for the Horn, only the front diesel should make the sound.
While in individual operation all the Functions will work but when in a Consist they can be enabled/disabled by using CVs 21 and 22, using the Decoder Manual or even better, Decoder Pro.
For NCE Users: NCE Command Stations (Power Pro and Power Cab) have a CMD STN Setting for “Send Functions Commands to Consists”. By default it is YES. Make sure it is still 1= YES if you are having trouble getting your Functions to work as desired when using Consists.
Lighting Effects.
Each decoder function output can be programmed as a Rule 17, dimmable, reversing headlight or as a Mars, Beacon, Gyra, marker lights. The flashing rate of these lights can be adjusted. The available options are limited only by what the manufacturer implements in the decoder. Not all manufacturers provide the same level of effects.
All present day NCE decoders offer software version 3.5 that has the same lighting effects for all decoders, just the quantity of functions change in different decoders. Using the Decoder Manual, I have copied the EFX Lighting Effects below.
All NCE D13SRs now are released with 4 functions that means CV 123 is added. Below is the version 3.5 firmware copied from the DA-SR decoder at http://www.ncecorporation.com/pdf/dasr.pdf
This gives a total of:
· "161" for CV 120 for my Front Headlight that is connected to the white wire.
· "162" for CV 121 for my Rear Headlight that is connected to the yellow wire.
The headlight will only illuminate in the direction of travel and dimmed by pressing F4.
An interesting example of headlight operation, was mentioned on the NCE Yahoo list in Oct 06, that gave a fully independent headlight operation using a combination of headlight effects and re-assigning function buttons (Function Mapping). The relevant CVs and values are copied below. This is just an example of how flexible decoders are in controlling the headlights, providing modellers with the effect they desire in endeavouring to get their best effect.
These CVs were programmed with their respective values CV33=1, CV34=1, CV35=2, CV120=32, CV121=36 and CV122=0.
CV 33, 34 and 35 are Function Mapping CVs that when programmed, re - mapped the outputs to operate by the relevant function buttons and CVs 120, 121, 122 etc, determines which lighting effect is applied to each of the outputs 1, 2, 3 etc.
It does not mater what direction the loco is going, direction has NO influence on the headlights at all. Either or both headlights can be selected on, with F4 dimming the front and F8 dimming the rear any combination true independent light control.
Function Mapping.
Once a decoder output has been programmed to provide the desired lighting effect, this output can be mapped or connected to any function button. Tying this particular lighting effect or a particular sound to a function, is called Function Mapping.
In the previous NCE Lighting Effect topic, the output of the F1, F2 etc were programmed with a value of 160. This provided an ON/OFF headlight dimmed with F4 operating LEDs. The function was not mapped in these NCE decoders because they are headlights and can be controlled by F0F and FOR, for direction change.
Referring to the Soundtraxx Tsunami sound decoder Manual, the Function Table (map) shows how each function button (left column) can be connected or mapped to particular sound or light effect shown on the top line. Mapping a function button (F0 to F12) is achieved by programming the applicable CV (33 to 46) with the desired effects value, shown in the column below the sound or effect.
Cross referencing the bold values, in the table shows the default sound/effect for each function button. For example F2 operates the Whistle. From the table, it can be seen that F2 can be mapped to operate the Headlight, Backlight, Whistle, Bell, FX5, FX6, Dynamo and short Whistle all the sounds/effects NOT in the blocked out section.
All decoders have tables like the Tsunami and use similar “cross referencing” method to program the applicable CV for the applicable function, so as to connect/set the desired sound or lighting effect.
For example "F6" (CV 40) can be mapped so that it operates the Bell, when it is pressed.
The default settings of the Tsunami provide the effect , the values shown in bold .
From the Soundtraxx Tsunami decoder manual, it shows the settings with the default settings, shown in bold. Using this table, you can assign each function button F1 (CV 35) to F12 (CV 46) to one of 8 outputs, but only to the values . FO(f) CV 33 and FO(r) CV 34 are for the headlight. All decoder manuals have a table similar to this but obviously sound decoders have more effects, enabling more options.
A function button can be mapped to operate any output within the Function Mapping Table of the Decoder Manual and can activate more than one effect. Below are a few examples from the Tsunami, refer to the above table.
Auto Reversing Headlights in a Consist with NCE.
I wanted auto reversing, dimmable headlights for my diesels and from the Light Effects Table, I programmed the following:
This works perfectly and they DIM when F4 is operated. When two diesels are consisted with the rear ends facing each other, I wanted the facing rear ends headlights to never illuminate, but work normally when NOT in a consist. They are regularly separated on my layout.
From the manual, this should be possible, I can do it with my Soundtraxx and TCS decoders but no mater what I program into CV 21 and 22, it doesn’t work, it seems that NCE decoders with the version 3.3 and 3.5 software don’t support this lighting effect that I and many others want, while other brand decoders can.
During a recent (Mar 07) discussion on the Yahoo NCE group, a few members discussed this inability to set up loco headlights when in a consist as above. One modeller, Bob became so frustrated with not getting the effect explained above, that he disconnected the facing headlights, but is should be possible with DCC.
Chris Heili on 17 Mar 07 came to the rescue with his method (copied below) that gives the above effect. I have not tried it as I dont have any NCE decoders in these diesels anymore. The theory sounds correct and it will work because it takes a different approach. Where Bob physically disconnected the facing headlights, Chris has disconnected them with DCC.
Chris’s solution:
Here's my quick and simple solution for NCE decoders with function mapping.
When setting up an advanced consist I use CV33 & CV34 to "disable" lights by mapping the Output to a "Non-Existent" Function. IE: CV33=0 or CV34=0. The values listed below are for a consist that will only have an operational HL of the lead Loco and BU of the Rear Loco with any Mid Locos being always off. The lighting can be turned on and off with F0 as usual and will be directional. This is assuming you have your lighting effects set to normal directional lighting prior to doing this.
Here is how I setup a consist:
If Lead Loco will be FWD: CV33=1 & CV34=0
If Lead Loco will be REV: CV33=0 & CV34=2
Mid Locos: CV33=0 & CV34=0
If Rear Loco will be REV: CV33=1 CV34=0
If Rear Loco will be FWD: CV33=0 CV34=2
If you program on the main, programming right to the CV, it takes less than a minute to setup 3 locos. You can do it before or after setting up your advanced consist. If you leave your consists together all the time, your golden. If you're making and breaking all the time it's only 1 extra step.
To return to normal directional light after removing a loco from a consist, just set CV33=1 and CV34=2.
In light of the fact that you're willing to spend a minute or two setting up a consist, an extra minute for correct lighting is worth
it to me. By the way I've only tried this with a Power Cab and NCE decoders.
Chris Heili
Dunbar & Wausaukee Railroad
Marcus’ Note: While it provides the effect we want, the fact that I have to program CVs 33 and 34 back, to provide non consist light effects is a hassle. The two different effects can be set up automatically in Soundtraxx and TCS decoders without re-programming, when locos are de-consisted, I wonder why I cannot do it with NCE?
Using LEDs or Incandescent Lamps.
See my web site article Headlights for DCC.
In digital electronics an analogue voltage has to be converted into 0s and 1s providing a certain number of voltage levels representing the voltage from minimum to maximum. In DCC the number of different levels, are called Speed Steps. The number of speed steps depends on the system and decoder.
Early decoder only had 14 different speed steps (levels) where the voltage between steps was about 1 volt for HO, resulting in a jerky operation. For this reason only very basic decoders come with 14 speed steps. Now, 28 and 128 are the normal amount of speed steps. 128 speed steps are produced from a 28 speed step table, by the decoder by a process called interpolating.
For a maximum voltage of 14 volts DC, each speed step on a straight line speed curve will equal:
Display throttles show the speed of the loco in Speed Steps but depending on the speed table (see below) used in the decoder, Speed Step 14 out of 28 or 64 out of 128, this setting may not be half voltage and most probably won’t be half speed.
The line plotted by the voltage versus speed step, provides a Speed Table In NCE decoders the default speed table curve is a straight line, blue in the diagram below. That is the same approximate 0.5 volt DC for each 28 speed step increment.
The default speed table/curve can be modified by programming CVs 2, 6 and 5 as shown by the pink line to improve the locos performance and how it responds to the throttle position. This curve has smaller increments for the first half and larger increments for the second half, providing a two step performance curve.
External (up loadable) speed tables are developed by programming a value between 0 and 255 for each of the 28 speed steps, CVs 67 to 94. This curve will take the shape of the programmed speed step values. A typical curve is the one shown in green that progressively increases the difference between each speed step. An easier way than individually programming each speed step that would take about 15 minutes, is to use Decoder Pro. See the section on Decoder Pro.
Some decoders like the Soundtraxx range up to the Tsunamis, don’t support CVs 5 and/or 6. In the Soundtraxx Tsunamis to use a Speed Table you have a choice of 14 “Internal” Speed Tables and a “Loadable”, selected by programming CV 25 with a value of between 2 and 15 for the “pre-set” and 16 for the User Loadable” Speed Table. Check the applicable Decoder Instruction manual. If
As with any decoder, you have to enable Speed Tables by adding “16” to “your value. For a Long Address and Speed Tables with DC OFF, set CV 29 to “50”
Note: If you are trying to reduce your Tsunami’s Top Speed by programming a User Loadable Table CVs 67 to 94, if you don’t program CV 25 with “16”, the Tsunami will use the default setting of CV 25, resulting in a “Linear” Speed Table where you most probably won’t see any change in running. Don’t forget to set CV 25 to “16”
PWM - Pulse Width Modulation The voltage.
Pulse Width Modulation, PWM, is a cheap and easy to manufacture technique to control DC motors. Some DC power packs and most DCC decoders use this technique.
PWM circuitry generates voltage pulses of constant amplitude, at a certain frequency. The wider the pulses, the higher the effective voltage, thus increasing the speed of the motor. This type of control, helps overcome the motor inertia (mechanical resistance), providing excellent slow speed.
PWM has the advantage of very little heat compared to developing a DC voltage which would certainly cause the extra problem of heat sinking the output components. The disadvantage of PWM is that it causes some motors to hum/buzz, very irritating especially in DCC with sound depending on frequency.
PWM frequency:
These quiet decoders and the sound decoders at 25 kHz still have pulses but at these frequencies are above the audible hearing range and thus are quiet, hence the terminology “noisy” for the low frequency units.
Frequency vs Torque: With the higher frequency to reduce the motors hum/buzz, the torque of the motor was reduced, thus making the slow speed performance, a little worse. Decoder manufacturers introduced extra pulses to combat this lower torque, namely torque compensation, dither, etc by intermittently introducing larger pulses at lower frequency to give increased torque at the high pulse frequency. These decoders now provide superb low speed running.
Fine Tuning decoders to give better loco speed response.
With DCC you can adjust how the motor performs by adjusting the motor control CVs namely 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and any extra ones, see decoder instructions. Using CVs 2, 5 and 6, called, using the internal speed tables. Programming these 3 CVs by:
Note 1: Back EMF decoders like Lenz, TCS, Loksound etc, there is no need to adjust CV 2 as locos with these decoder move off smoothly at Speed Step, every time. I always use a Back EMF decoder in NON sound installations because of the superb low speed performance of these decoders.
Note 2: Some NON Back EMF decoders like the ones from NCE, have adjustments to improve slow speed performance and for NCE these are the CVs – CV 116 (T/C Voltage and CV 117 T/C Frequency).
With NON Back EMF decoders like NCE, adjust CV 116 & CV 117 to get the best “starting off” performance possible.
Some decoders support external speed tables. This is done by individually programming a value into each of CVs 67 to 94 to give the desired speed curve. A typical shape of one of these is show in green in the diagram. To individually enter 28 CV values will require a lot of time, especially if adjustment has to carried out and to adjust many decoders. This is best done with Decoder Pro, see the section on Decoder Pro for details.
Some decoders offer further motor control CVs to give better slow speed due to the increase in PWM frequency affecting the motors torque. Manufacturers have coined different names for these including dither, torque compensation etc. Check decoder instructions as these are manufacturer specific CVs and all makers use different CV numbers.
Note: Soundtraxx decoders do not support CV 5 and CV 6. Select one of the 14 internal speed tables. To reduce a locos top speed, this will have to be done by programming values into CVs 67 to 94, as above by using the User Loadable Speed Table.
During the Initial Programming, I suggested the only CV that needs to be adjusted to get satisfactory running, was CV 2 Volts Start. This was to get rid of the lag on loco start up. Other fine tuning CVs are:
CVs 116 and 117 provide a little extra pulses or kicks that improve the low end performance. When the decoders PWM frequency was increased to 16 kHz to produce the more desirable quiet motor control, it lost a little low speed oomph (torque) when compared to the noisy 2 kHz motor drive. Other manufacturers use different CV numbers and names for the same feature for the same reason. Adjust these CVs to the manual description or till you get the best results.
The easiest method to program these motor control CVs, and any other CV, is to use Programming on the Main POM. The benefit of this is that you get instant results out on the track without the inconvenience of returning to the Program Track.
Note: A lot of users want to check what value they have programmed into a decoder, by reading it immediately after writing it. This can only be done on the Program Track. When using POM to program, with the NCE Procab, you write a value to a CV, say CV 2 programmed to 25. Press ESC/PROG and the loco is ready to operate to test the change. If you're not happy, program CV 2 again, when you enter 2 for the CV you want to change, the last value that you programmed this CV to, in this operating session, comes up on the Procabs display. In this case 020 is displayed. This way you know what was programmed before.
Said another way, the system remembers (it does not read it) the last programmed value for that CV, so long as it was in this session.
Program all of these CVs until your loco has the best starting, low speed running, momentum for acceleration and braking. The CVs for torque compensation really provide much smoother constant speed low speed running. Tweak these for the best results. When using the Torque Compensation CVs, set CV 2 to 0 and program these for the best starting. Also see the manual.
Some of the Lenz and all of the ESU Loksound range come with Back EMF. This feature provides the best slow speed running and the loco always moves off at Speed Step 1 irrespective of the load. For more details and comparisons, see below topics.
Can motors used in our locos comprise of a 3 or 5 pole laminated steel armature spinning within 2 stationary permanent magnets. Each pole is made up of many turns of fine wire and terminated at a 3 or 5 segment commutator. The commutator is so arranged that it will cause the pole of the armature to be magnetically opposite to the adjacent magnet. The opposing magnetic fields repel each other thus rotating the armature. The same armature pole continually changes from a north pole to a south pole to a north pole etc, as it passes the two magnets thus continually providing a force. This is why the motor keeps rotating.
The size of the conductors (resistance) in the armature fields, determines the current flowing providing the rotating magnetic field. The amount of current flowing and the type of magnets used, determines how much force is provided by the motor. Can motors in our locos for the last 15 years spin at higher RPMs and are geared down with a typical 28:1 and 36:1 ratio NWSL gearboxes, provide motor that draw currents in the range of 50 to 200 mAs, allowing us to use much smaller sized decoders. A real good send to a modeller installing DCC decoders into his DC fleet.
The motor speed in controlled varying the pulse width of the constant amplitude voltage (Pulse Width Modulation- PWM) that inturns varies the current through the motor and the magnetic force, varying the speed.
When the current is turned off, between each of the pulses, the motor acts like a generator, producing a voltage that is called Back EMF (Electromotive Force). This happens in quiet decoders like the NCE range, at about 15,000 times a second.
Decoders like Lenz Back EMF decoders and similar, measure this Back EMF voltage and use it as feedback to tell the decoder how fast the armature is rotating. This then provides a constant speed of the loco, irrespective of the load. QSI and the Soundtraxx Tsunami use this back EMF to control the sounds of the decoder.
Setting the throttle to speed step 1 or any other speed, the loco moves off at this speed and maintains this speed. If the motor slows or speeds up, the decoder senses this by the reduction or increases in the back EMF, and it adjusts the width of the PWM pulse accordingly. This process happens many times a second, and thus enables a loco to maintain the slowest speed step continuously, irrespective of load and mechanical resistance. To the operator you cannot see this happening, you just see the speed staying the same.
Going up a hill or descending, this same decreasing/increasing back EMF is sensed by the decoder and the decoder adjust the motor speed. This is similar to a motor cars cruise control.
Consisting locos with Back EMF decoders.
Using Back EMF in locos that are consisted together can cause bucking that causes irregular speed and noisy operation. This is caused by each decoder adjusting its own motors speed and having a variable load caused by the other motor. The two locos are fighting each other. Some decoders have CVs to adjust the level of the back EMF feature and to also reduce its effect with increasing speed.
The amount of bucking and noise depends on the loco mechanisms and how much Back EMF effect is turned on in the decoder. Some users of multiple Back EMF consists have reported that they don't have any problems, but others do. Once again, your mileage may vary.
Operators of O scale where they have two motors controlled by Back EMF decoder have also the same variation in results some have a problem and some don't.
Comparing decoder motor control features, namely Back EMF, Torque Compensation, Dither etc.
Stated simply, if you want your loco to move off from stationary at speed step 1 every time, irrespective of the train load, use a Lenz Back EMF decoder. But, yes there is always a proviso, the extra cost of these decoders, and this can be a significant percentage difference. Read on for the full explanation.
The relationship between PWM frequency CV 9, noise and performance (oomph).
DCC decoders use Pulse Width Modulation PWM techniques to control the motor, lights etc in the loco, but depending on the PWM frequency, may cause a buzz/hum from the motor. This motor buzz/hum varies, depending on the mechanism used.
In the early decoders, the PWM frequency could be adjusted between about 200 2,000 Hz (cycles per second) and many operators complained about the noise from these decoders. The noise from some locos is so loud that it had its own sound system, not too prototypical but it was cheap. This adjustment in most cases varied the noise slightly but the noise was still very evident in the noisy mechanisms.
For successful quieter operation, manufacturers increased the PWM frequency to about 15,000 Hz hence the term quiet decoders. The noise is still there, but higher than our audible hearing range. Most, if not all manufacturers now use this higher PWM frequency. Getting rid of the noise “problem” created a new issue. These quiet decoders caused the motor to loose its oomph (torque). Now was this a bigger problem than the original noise one? This also required adjusting CV 2 Volts Start, to get the loco to move off at speed step 1 or close to it.
An example of this is on my early NCE Version 3.2/3.3 software quiet decoders, I could adjust the PWM frequency using CV 9. Adjusting CV 9 to the higher values with 255 the lowest PWM frequency but this turned the quiet feature of these decoders OFF. This generally gave the decoder more oomph This lower PWM frequency gave a very noisy motor but the loco moved off at speed step 1. This defeated the purpose of introducing these decoders, but due to the loss of oomph, modellers played around with CV 9 to give the best compromise between noise and oomph. Adjusting CV 9 to 0, gives the highest frequency of 15,625 Hz, the loco motor is quiet but I had to adjust CV 2 to 40 (using 128 speed steps) on my NCE Procab to provide the loco to move off at or near speed step 1.
Manufacturers introduced an extra enhancement to the PWM voltage to the motor to overcome this loss of torque oomph, by adding an extra magic pulse of different frequency and amplitude. NCE calls it Torque Compensation and uses CV 116 - kick rate (frequency) and CV 117 - kick strength (amplitude). TCS call it Dither, and use CV 56 - frequency and CV 57 voltage. Digitrax call it Torque Compensation etc.
This now gave a quiet decoder that gave super slow speed and great performance (oomph) WITHOUT the hum/buzz from the motor/mechanism. Manufactures coined the term Silent Running decoders. The NCE and TCS decoders that come with the Torque Compensation and Dither do not support CV 9 (PWM frequency) and programming this CV does nothing. The decoder just seems to ignore this. For NCE all decoders now are shipped with version 3.5 of the software.
Low Speed Performance.
In the past I have used, NCE's D13SRs and N12SRs and TCSs T1s and M1s as my motor decoders. Depending on space availability and location against cost, would determine which one. Each of these decoders offers torque compensation or the similar dither for this enhancement to the slow running speed characteristics of these decoders. I adjust the torque compensation or dither volts and frequency CVs. The final product is better than a decoder without these features. My initial decoders were NCE and I adjusted the relevant CVs to achieve the best result.
NCE’s Torque Compensation and TCS’s Dither are a "fixed" amount of "enhancement" signal that does work. Using my electrical experience this type of correction is what is called "open loop" (no feedback). This enhancement will not change according to what is actually happening, like when the load changes when going up a hill.
Note: If you don't adjust torque compensation or dither CVs for volts and frequency, or operate these decoders with the minimum values, the loco may need a higher throttle setting (higher speed step setting) to get the loco to move off from stationary. This may be interpreted as a slower decoder. As the dither or torque compensation introduces more oomph to overcome the initial inertia of the loco and possible mechanical resistance because of the higher PWM frequency, CV 2 may have to be adjusted to get the loco to move off at the lowest speed step setting. Also setting dither and/or torque compensation CVs, will affect CV 2 the Volts Start setting.
All motors generate voltage when the current is turned off. For the same reason the armature moves (opposing magnetic fields) when current flows in the coil with this coil in a magnetic field (permanent magnets). A coil spinning in a magnetic field, has current induced into it. This is how a generator works.
Back EMF is a variable amount of enhancement and value is determined by what is actually happening NOW - real time. This form of adjustment is called "closed loop" feedback. It does this by measuring the voltage generated by the motor, when the power is removed, and that is why it is called Back EMF. Since the current in a later "quiet" decoders is turned on and off at about 15,000 - 25,000 times a second - PWM, this happens very quickly and the PIC inside the decoder changes the "adjustment" to the base power signal to the motor, many times a second. This is a real time adjustment, happening all the time.
Thus by definition alone, Back EMF will be better than Dither, Torque Compensation etc as it is "real time" closed loop feedback, enabling continuous adjustment according to all the variables and in the case of our locos variable load.
When adjusting the decoders dither or torque compensation etc CVs, you will get varying results dependant on actual load at the time. In model railroad terms, when operating a train with a full load of wagons, shunting a few wagons and operating light engine, the loco start off results will be different. See also my NR loco experience about super slow running complaint.
For me, the Back EMF decoder, is all about getting the supreme low speed control with constant take offs at speed step 1 - every time and is not about "cruise control" going up and down hills, but the two go "hand in hand".
So that is the theory and these are the differences in Dither, Torque Compensation and Back EMF. I find the results from Back EMF decoder will be determined by the type and condition of the drive line used. This type of control is so good, that it can hide some mechanical problem like a binding mechanism etc, but so what. When the problem gets bad enough, the decoder will not be able to hide it any longer by its magic.
Price comparison between decoders, choice, recommendation and what's in my locos.
For me in Australia, decoders cost are: NCE D13SRs about $23, N14SRs about $40. TCSs T1s about $30 and M1s about $43. Lenz Silver about $55, and Lenz Gold, about $60 (Feb 07) and they are always getting cheaper.
Depending the available space and for a steam loco, if I didn't want to separate the loco and tender, I would fit a D13SR or a TCS T1. If I wanted to separate the loco and tender for a steam loco, I would mount a TCS M1 between the driving wheels on the loco. The Z14SR is just a little too thick and wide. If located inside the boiler it was ok.
Obviously the electronics involved with Back EMF and the European price, makes these Lenz Back EMF decoders more expensive. This above comparisons is not totally fair, as price has not been considered. I have ONLY made comparisons of the features. Not everybody will have the same priorities as me in regards the way a loco starts off. Some are happy at just using the decoder at the default value, some are happy to adjust just CV 2, some want to use Decoder Pro for a User defined speed table, etc. Everybody will have to make a choice on which decoder he/she fits to a loco.
After fitting decoders to my somewhat small fleet about 30 locos, when compared to others, and to many installations that I do for others, I have done the sums. The extra cost of say $20 to $30 for fitting the Lenz Back EMF decoder that will give the best possible performance and always start at speed step 1,is worth it. This $20 to $30 is bugger all in the big picture, when for me locos start off at $245 for diesels and $400 for steam locos. This is why I recommend back EMF decoders. As of Dec 07, TCS has back EMF decoders. I hope NCE will make one soon. I will retrofit my popular locos with the irregular starting.
With all this said, I recommend (Jan 08) for:
· Non sound installations a Back EMF decoder from Lenz, Loksound and now TCS (Nov 07).
· Sound for Steam: The Soundtraxx Tsunami. In my NSW locos I use the Light or K36.
· Sound for diesels: Loksound. Cheaper sound is the Soundtraxx DSD-101LC range of 4 diesel sounds/horn inc a great Alco sound.
As my ultimate aim is to have sound in all of my locos, I am somewhat controlled by what the sound decoder manufactures provide in their decoders. QSI now Jan 08, have the Back EMF on and the Soundtraxx Tsunami provides limited Back EMF, providing great slow running. That's my steam fleet covered, now for the diesels. My present diesels all have Soundtraxx DSD-100LCs or 101LCs. These are noisy low PWM frequency that provides reasonably good low speed performance. I have a couple of Loksounds in my 44s.
Note: When consisting locos, the effect of Back EMF should be decreased as the loco speed increases, if this possible by adjusting CVs OR deactivate the Back EMF , otherwise there will be a jerking operation of the consist. I will add detail here later.
Adding a Sound decoder.
When adding a sound decoder to an existing loco that already has a DCC motor decoder, there are numerous options depending on the sound decoder purchased, and these are:
As with all evolving products, manufacturers are always providing better versions that generally are cheaper and smaller. It pays to sometimes wait, but when we finally take the plunge, we can only choose from what is available NOW and not what is promised to be released.
For my initial sound installation as of April 07, if I wanted to save a few dollars, try a noisy Soundtraxx decoder. See how to Test for whether the motor will buzz/hum prior to installing the decoder into a loco, below.
See Setting the Address for DUAL Installations and Programming DUAL decoder installations below for programming these installations.
The problems with Soundtraxx decoders prior to the Tsunami.
I have numerous DSD-100LCs in my loco fleet, but they have a few problems that Soundtraxx has addressed and are not in the new Tsunami decoders. At the moment (April 07) there are only Steam Tsunamis, no Diesels.
The previous price for the DSD-100LCs were in Australia, were $65. They have been replaced by the DSD-101LC range that has 3 versions, an Alco and two EMD 1st and 2nd Generations at A$94. An 8 ohm speaker has to be provided. Steam Tsunamis are A$165.
The specific Soundtraxx decoders for example the 090 range are a little more expensive but have the same problems as the DSD-100LC and 101LCs. These are:
Early DCC decoders had the same low PWM frequency motor drive and quickly good the title of Noisy decoders, that these Soundtraxx decoders have. Modellers complained about the buzz/hum that these decoders caused. All later model DCC decoder have what is called by many as Quiet Drive etc. See my PWM article.
I have two DSD-100LC steam decoders, but I find the sound from these not appealing (to tinny) but the diesels are appealing enough and provide idle sounds that the steam ones don't. I set all my decoders to turn off the sounds automatically, after 3 minutes of inactivity. I will put one of these steam DSD-100LCs into Thomas. The little kids wont notice the buzz/hum.
Most of my future loco purchases will be coming RTR with SOUND from Eureka Models that will have a QSI chip included for an extra A$100. This saves me buying ANY decoder and speaker and saves heaps of time and money. They will have back EMF and will be quiet.
If fitting steam sound decoders to an existing loco for the first time then there would be no alternative, just fit the Tsunami at A$165 plus speaker. This will give great performance with a back EMF motor control the ultimate as far as I am concerned.
My preference for sound has changed from one that wanted idling and more prototypical correct sounds to one that is just giving each loco a sound identity, a diesel hum or a steam chuff. This enables a generic sound decoder, hence the DSD-100LC but I have to put up with noisy non back EMF motor control. This is something that each modeller will have to sort out.
But dollars do count. When there is a fleet of sound locos, the ultimate roster, I have got sound into MORE locos for the same expense. Running eventually a timetable operation on my layout, each loco will only be run for 15 to 30 minutes instead of for hours, so even the type layout operation can determine what type of sound.
Alternative decoders Apr 07:
Diesels: Loksound & maybe soon Soundtraxx Diesel Tsunamis.
Steam: Soundtraxx Tsunami and Loksound
Note: QSI Solutions (A part of Tony's Trains) as of Jul 09 have released some after market QSI manufactured decoders.
Sound Drop Outs or Sound Resets Why and How to Fix.
Sound "drop outs" or "sound resets" are caused by a momentary loss of power to the loco.
Locos prior to sound had these same pickup problems, but they "coasted" over the dirt and then picked up power again normally with possibly a slight hesitation in speed but mainly went unnoticed. With a sound loco, this same power interruption, you hear this interruption by the stopping and starting of the sound, a sound reset of the decoder. To reduce this:
Two methods I have used are:
Programming DUAL decoder installations.
When using the Program Track for programming, to read CV values, there can ONLY be ONE decoder installed in the loco. The options for these DUAL installations are:
Once DCC users get used to POM, there really is no requirement of the Program Track, except for an initial test for the correct installation that confirms that there is no faulty or incorrect wiring (shorts). Mine sits under my work bench.
Setting the Address for DUAL decoder installations - options.
When there are two decoders in one loco, you have to address both decoders by:
I have used both methods.
Using the Consisting method is easier and especially more practical if the loco is only used on one layout. There are other consisting methods apart from Advanced, but that is NCE's default option. You can choose.
Note: Having all your locos with the SAME Short Address (mine as the default 3), will NOT cause all locos to be programmed when using on the Main POM when the locos are being operated on their Long Addresses.
For my DUAL installs, I use the SAME ADDRESS option and use POM programming. Yes you might say there are some conflicting CVs, that when programmed this way, both will be programmed, so what. I have only ever come across ONE time that this was a problem and I cannot remember it now.
Individual decoder programming when using Consisting option.
Self explanatory as each decoder is treated as a separate installation with two different addresses.
Individual decoder programming when using the SAME Address option.
Prior to decoders coming with the Decoder Lock feature, some installations that needed 2 decoders eg. a loco with a Soundtraxx DSX (sound only decoder) and a motor decoder, programming of the decoders could have been a little difficult due to the clashing of decoder CVs. These installations prevented the reading of CVs on the Program Track, but they could be programmed using POM.
To program ONE of the decoders of a DUAL decoder installation with a CV value, that you don't want to program the other decoder with, due to a conflict etc, do the following:
For Joe Fugate's programming method of his BLI BlueLine diesels, see:
http://model-trains-video.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?150.0
Using the DSD/Tsunami for Sound ONLY To read CVs without the motor connected.
When the DSD or Tsunamis are used as a Sound Only decoder, there is no load (motor) connected to the decoders Orange and Grey (motor) wires. When CVs need to be read on the Program Track, the Command Station instructs the decoder to pulse the motor (load) and it is the current of these pulses that the Command Station is able to display a CV value. Said another way, no motor no pulses no current = no CV value.
So that there are pulses for the Command Station to display (read) CV values, you have to connect a 100 Ohm resistor, to the Orange and Grey wire. This now provides a load, similar to the motor to provide a CV read value.
Under normal operation, this 100 ohm 1 watt resistor can get quite warm, depending on what speed and for how long the loco is operated, this may create heat problem.
Current flowing through the resistor depends upon the voltage applied to the resistor and under normal circumstances, proportional to the speed of the loco. The voltage from the decoder increases as the speed of the loco increases. Two scenarios:
To eliminate the need of using a 2 Watt resistor, the DSD/Tsunami can be “set up” to use a Speed Table (CVs 67 to 94), by adding 16 to the value of what is programmed in CV 29 (see the decoder Manual if necessary) and program each of the CVs (CVs 67 to 94) with a value of ZERO. When the loco is driven, there will be no current through the resistor but when it is necessary to read CVs, it will be possible. Using Decoder make setting this “Zero” Speed Table, easier.
With this above “ZERO Speed Table you’ll be able to use a 100 Ohm ¼ Watt resistor.
Test for whether the motor will buzz/hum
One problem when going to sound is that any mechanism noise can detract from the sounds from the decoder, so this now may become a problem. This will determine what mechanisms can have sound. For my local model mechanisms, K & M mechanisms have their own on board noise generators (noisy gear train) and precludes this type of mechanism from being used with a sound decoder.
Early DCC decoder (prior to about 2002) and all of the Soundtraxx range prior to the Tsunami, the PWM frequency of the motor control was about 2,000 Hz that in a lot of cased the motor to buzz/hum. Decoders using PWM frequencies in this range became known as noisy motor control.
To save on the disappointment of finding that a loco makes too much noise (buzz/hum), after spending a few hours installing it, when using any NOISY earlier type of decoder carry out this test:
Setting up and operating the Soundtraxx Tsunami on DC.
Since sound has become popular with the introduction of RTR models, many users want to add sound to their existing loco fleet.
The QSI locos operate on DC with a lag at start up, as you wind up the knob of the DC power pack to about 5 to 7 volts, enough volts to power the electronics in the decoder. At this point, the QSI now makes idle sound but does not move. Increasing the throttle further, now the loco moves.
Operating the direction switch while the loco is moving, sounds the horn or whistle.
DC operation of the Soundtraxx Tsunami is similar to above, except there is no capability to blow the horn/whistle. The Tsunami only provides CHUFFS and as such, will be only a basic sound decoder and no extra sounds.
To ENABLE DC operation of the Tsunami, it has to be SETUP on a DCC layout really silly but until they (Soundtraxx) change the default settings for the Tsunami, this is how it works.
One of the local modellers here, James McInerney setup his Tsunami equipped Austrains C36 to run on DC, by the programming the below CVs including some that were NOT mentioned in the Steam Users Guide. The CVs programmed were:
CV 3 to a minimum, say 10.
CV 4 to a minimum, say 5.
CV
12 Power Source Conversion = 1
CV 13 Analogue Function Enable = 1
CV 14 Analogue Function Enable 2 = 1
CV
29 to 38 DC ON, 4 digit addressing normal direction and Internal Speed Tables.
CV 63 Analogue Mode Motor Start Voltage = 10
CV 64 Analogue Mode Max Motor Voltage = 120
Note: After operating any loco on DC by enabling DC operation by
programming CV 29, always set DC to OFF, when operating on a DCC layout.
Note 2: Pulse type Power Packs may also cause the Tsunami not to move. Select the pulses to OFF, if the power pack has this feature or use one of the old type rheostat controllers (H & M etc).
Soundtraxx Tsunami’s Playable Whistle with NCE.
The Tsunamis have a “Playable Whistle” that is “played” by moving the Speed Wheel of the Procab while the holing Horn/Whistle button down. The loco’s speed does NOT vary as you rotate the wheel to vary the Whistle. To activate the Playable Whistle, you have to configure BOTH the Tsunami and the Throttle (only the Procab).
Digitrax has a patient on a “pressure sensitive” F2 button so NCE had to use the Speed Wheel (as suggested by Ken Cameron in a message on the NCE Yahoo List on Sunday, 26 September 2010). If NCE wanted to add a ‘pressure sensitive’ F2 Button, NCE could not, due to the patent, so we NCE users are saddled with the wheel for this feature.
Note: According to page 43 of the Tsunami Manual, once the Tsunami decoder is configured to play as a ‘Playable Whistle”, operating the HORN Button or “F2” Function of ANY throttle that has NOT been setup to play “Playable Whistles”, the Whistle (Playable or not), will NOT sound. For example any visitor’s throttle, other Procabs or ANY Cab04. This has been confirmed on my layout with two different Procabs. You CANNOT set up the Engineer (Cab04/5/6) throttles to play an ANOLOG HORN CHANNEL (Cab Parameters)
To set up the Playable Whistle, do:
Program the Tsunamis CV47 with 127 using either form of programming.
On the Procab/Power Cab, press PROG/ESC then 6 to access ‘SET CAB PARAMS’ menu.
Press ENTER and scroll through to ‘ANALOG HORN CHANNEL’ by pressing ENTER Twice.
Type 127 then ENTER (matches the analogue channel of the Tsunami).
Press ENTER to scroll through to ANALOG BIAS
Set to 8 if it's not set already.
The Playable Whistle effect, while impressive for modelling some particular prototypes, I would certainly not want this “continual’ blowing of the whistle on my layout during an operating session. An example of a loco/prototype using this feature, see this video mainly audio YouTube Clip (kindly posted by the Pat Flory on the NCE Yahoo Group on 26 September 2010) at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl2prJHhguQ
I wonder how popular this feature is, especially with the quirks mentioned above. Thanks to NCE, at least the feature is there for modellers to use, if they use Procabs.
Horn/Whistle Volume LOW especially after having enabling the Payable Whistle (above).
After enabling the Tsunami Playable Whistle as above, I noticed the normal whistle was quieter than previously. I set all my values from above back to normal. 0 in the Cab Parameters Analogue Horn setting that I had set to 127 for the Payable Whistle and the normal whistle was back to its normal high volume.
Recently while installing a 16 MB Loksound V3.5 decoder and configuring the decoder I had a problem with the volume of the horn. Operating the horn using the F2 the horn was loud but when I operated the horn using the dedicated HORN/WHISTLE button, the horn was significantly quieter. I discussed with one of my group members if he could load the real NSW 44 horn recording we had into the Loksound. On completion, we tested the various horns that were set up using F1 to F4 using the Lokprogrammer and all horns were loud Operated the same with a Procab until I operated the horn using the HORN/WHISTLE button. This resulted in a markedly softer horn. An hours mucking around and reprogramming and my mate saying, could it be a problem with the NCE. No! I said, until I remembered the Playable Horn issue I had, from 9 months ago. Set the Cab Parameters Analogue Horn to 0 but it didn't take until I cycled the power to the Power Pro. Now all horns are loud.
If not using the Playable Horn feature, set the Cab Parameters Analogue Horn to 0 and cycle the power.
Speed Matching Locos using Soundtraxx Decoders including the Tsunami.
When using Decoder Pro to set up your own Speed Table (User Loadable) to reduce the Top Speed, on the Decoder Pro Speed Table page set BOTH the following:
· Check Tick “Use Speed Table”. This programs CV 29 to use Speed Tables by adding “16”. Using a Long Address and Speed Tables with DC OFF = “50”
AND
· SELECT “User Defined Speed Table” on the “Speed Table Selection” Drop Down Box. This programs CV 25 to use the User Defined and not one of the Pre-set Tables.
NOTE: If the “User Defined Speed Table” is NOT selected and you change the “Sliders” in the Speed Table to the “Table” you want NOTHING will change when you try the loco on the Mainline because the default value of CV 25 is “2” that provides a Straight Line LINEAR Speed Table, the same as NOT using a Speed Table.
Soundtraxx decoders don’t support CV 5 and CV 6.
Without using Speed Tables, you can only adjust CV 2 – Volts Start of the decoder to change the locos performance.
If you want to further modify the “Straight Line” Speed Curve performance, you have to operate with Speed Tables configured by programming CV 29 to “50” (Long Address etc).
Included in the decoder are 14 “Pre-set” Speed Curves (Tables) – 7 Logarithmic, 6 Exponential Curves and a Linear (Straight Line), all starting at ZERO and “ending at MAX. Speed Step 94 will be 255 resulting in maximum speed.
A User Defined Speed Table can also be used where the user can make his/her own Speed Curve.
Programming CV 25 with a value of 2 to 16 will determine the Speed Curve – “16” for User Defined. See the Soundtraxx Manual for more details.
To adjust the loco/decoder’s “Speed Curve” to generally reduce the Top/Mid Speed of a loco for “speed matching”, there are 2 methods to achieve the speed matching but both use Speed Tables:
1. Select a “User Defined Table” and adjust CVs 67 to 94. This would be a tedious task using a Handpiece. Decoder Pro makes this easier, making this method my preferred option. To reduce the Top Speed in Decoder Pro, “pull down” the Slider for CV94 then “Click” “Match Ends to provide s straight line between the Minimum and the “NEW” maximum. Then select “WRITE CHANGES”.
2. Select “Linear” and adjust the TRIM CVs, CVs 66 and CV 95. Reducing CV 66 from the default of “128” will reduce the Top Speed in FORWARD. Reducing CV 95 reduces the Top Speed in REVERSE. The Trim CVs modify the Speed Curve CVs (67 – 94) depending on the value. See the Manual for more details.
Consisting Types.
As the prototype MUed two or more locos together for certain operations, the same can be done in DCC. This procedure is called consisting. There a various ways to consist locos together, three are discussed below:
Address Consisting where you program each loco with the same address, but obviously one or more of the locos would have a different address than what was the loco I.D. number. The advantage here is that the system only has to send the one packet and all the engines in consist would respond due they all had the same address. Simple enough to do, but if the consisted locos had to be broken up and moved individually, they would have required re-programming that may need the loco returned to the Program Track a five fingered shunt would be in order here.
Advantage packets are kept to a minimum. Disadvantage - Cannot isolate locos for individual control.
Standard or Universal Consisting There is no decoder programming required with this form. The Command Station keeps track of which locos are consisted together. Individual locos are still addressed with their unique address. The disadvantage of this form of consisting is that each one of the locos is sent its own individual packet for each loco instruction. Lots of extra packets being sent compared to address consisting. On a large layout with a few operators, this could cause packet overload that would start to slow down the system and possibly causing problems. Also the consist is not portable, so taking it to another layout, you would have to rebuild the consist. CVP and Digitrax use this as their primary form of consisting.
Advantage can have individual loco operation. Disadvantage Lots of packets required and no portability.
Advanced Consisting Most later (07 and on) types of decoders, on top of responding to the 2 or 4 digit address, can respond to a third address, a 2 digit (1 to 127) number that is programmed into CV 19. CV 19 and is known as the Consist Address CV.
Locos set up in a consist using the Advanced Consist method (a non zero value in CV 19), will now ignore the normal 2 or 4 digit address and respond to packets that have the consist address as the address. This only applies to motor commands. A consisted unit still responds to function commands at it's own address. The Command Station keeps track of what loco have consists but only sends instruction with the consist number.
Advance consist are portable. NCE and Lenz use this form of consisting as their primary method. Additional CVs 21 and 22 are used in advanced consisting, to send functions to the consist. So two sound locos could be operating but you can disable the horn in the rear loco using CV 22.All other function can be set for individual locos in the advanced consist
Advantage Individual operation by writing 0 to CV 19 to all locos. It is portable, use the consist number to address all locos, plus function selection in CV 21 ad 22. Disadvantages uses 2 digit addresses, that may conflict with already used 2 digit locos, secondly not all decoders support it.
Double ended loco addressing of Consists NCE’s method of Consisting. (Dec 2004 EPROM)
NCE uses Advanced Consists by default. Press ENTER = ADV at Setup. The Command Station programs CV 19 of all locos that are used in the Consist with one number between 1 and 127, starting from the highest available one. If you are using two digit numbers for your locos, these WILL clash with the Consist numbers, so this is why NCE starts with 127 and then 126 and so on. This will reduce the likelihood of clashing with short address locos.
You don't have to remember the consist number, not even when addressing the Consist. No more lists to record details etc. It is only used by the Command Station where all locos addresses in the Consist are attached at SETUP on the Consist Menu.
The Double Ended loco addressing feature (its fantastic), allows you to address the Consist by the actual loco numbers. With two or three locos standing there in a Consist, ready to be used Which is the forward one? Simple, select the loco that is the forward one, in the direction that you want to go. This could be either, the right or left loco, the front or the rear one in the setup, it does not matter. The Procab now displays CON selected loco no. and FWD. Changing the direction of the Consist, the Procab shows CON selected loco no. and REV. Select the other end loco and when it is going in its forward direction, the Procab shows FWD etc. No more confusion with loco numbers and the displayed direction.
As usual, when setting up and clearing (making or breaking) Consists, follow the prompts at the Consist Menu.
Clearing (kill) a Consist, no consist address no. required. Type in the front or rear loco number and ENTER. The C/S programs all locos CV 19s to 0. Its that easy.
What to do if ONE loco did not operate (run), after the Consist was “KILLED”
When you “kill” a consist, the Command is instructed to “clear” the locos assigned to that particular “Consist Address” and all the associated consisted loco have CV 19 programmed to “0” (while in a consist, this value was the Consist Address numeric value).
Occasionally this command to program CV 19 to “0”, is not received by a loco due dirty track/bad contact etc, resulting in “that” loco not moving, when asked to (if it is a sound loco, the sound works, but no movement).
To get the loco back to normal “singular” operation, it’s easy:
No need to return the loco to the Program Track and do a reset..
Speed Matching for Consisting.
Locos need to be roughly “speed matched”, when consisted together. Adjusting their Top Speed - CV 5, will get it “close enough”. A couple of methods.
Simple Simply adjust the Top Speed - CV 5, of all your locos to the Same Top Speed. I use 30 MPH. You use whatever speed you want. Using a Stopwatch, “time” how long the loco takes to cover 3 Feet of track. For HO this is 6 seconds. Too slow, increase CV 5, too fast, decrease CV 5. Then adjust CV 2 for “good” slow speed start.
Use Rob Paisley’s Speed Converter to calculate time. Soundtraxx decoders do NOT support CV 5, see the Note below.
This above method allows any “combinations” of locos to be consisted together.
Advanced
1. Warm up the locos for a few minutes prior to Speed Matching.
2. Determine which loco is going to be the Master
3. Set the Start Voltage of the master if not already set.
4. Set the Start voltage for the second loco to give similar Start Up.
5. Setup a consist.
6. DON’T connect the locos, keep them about 6 to 12 inches apart.
7. Operate the Consist, both locos will move.
8. Select Program On the Main – POM.
9. When prompted for an address, type in the second locos address (not the Master).
10. Now adjust the second locos CV 5 - Volts Max so that its top speed is similar to the first loco
11. Run the locos at mid speed - Speed Step 14 out of 28 or 64 out of 128.
12. Adjust CV 6 - Volts Med to give the second loco similar speed as the first.
13. This does not have to be accurate, 5 minutes will give you close enough speed match suitable for consisting.
NOTE: Soundtraxx decoders do NOT support CV 5. For them you’ll need to:
Select a Speed Table in CV 25.
Enable the Speed Table by adding 16 to the value of CV 29.
Adjust The Trim CVs – 66 & 95 to adjust the Top Speed.
See the Manual, done much more easily using Decoder Pro.
If you have a few Soundtraxx locos and you don’t use Decoder Pro, it’s time to get your layout connected to Decoder Pro that makes adjusting CVs and making Speed Tables for consisting is so much easier.
See my Blogg entry for my 30 MPH Speed Matching.
See Keith A’s Speed Matching method using Decoder Pro.
Also see the below topic on Consisting with different Decoders.
Setting up Headlights and Functions when Consisting.
The default factory programming for NCE decoders has all of the functions enabled for each locomotive operating in a consist as setup in CV 21 and CV 22. From the NCE Manual:
CV21 Functions active in consist mode. Bit 0 controls F1, Bit 1 controls F2, Bit 2 controls F3, etc.
A bit value of 1 equals function can be controlled at consist address, a bit value of 0 equals NO consist control
CV22 Functions active in consist mode. Bits 0, 1 control FLF and FLR respectively each bit 1=function can be controlled at consist address, 0 = no consist control
Using a consist example of three locos, you need to set up CV22 for the three locomotives so the headlights respond as you want them to.
A typical lighting effect that is suitable for my NSWGR and many others is Auto reversible dimmable headlights. So with three locos with the front and middle locos facing forward and the rear loco facing backwards (reversed) I want:
· Front Loco only the front light to illuminate (never the rear).
· Middle Loco NO lights to operate.
· Rear Loco As it is placed backwards in the consist I want only the FORWARD light to operate.
So in essence, out of 6 lights I only want 2 to operate when in a consist. When these locos are operated individually I need all 6 of the lights to work. So this is what setting up the headlights can do when in a consist. Similar operation can be reproduced for other functions. If these locos have sound all of them, then only the horn should be allowed to operate in the front loco. It can be set up this way.
Back to the headlights to get my desired effect:
This works for all brands of decoders as CV 21 and CV 22 are set aside for this Functions to operate in a Consist.
Consisting especially with different decoders eg. NCE, Lenz and ESU Loksound decoders.
Consisting locos is nothing new but with all the improvements and features in decoder these days, these features can make consisting more troublesome depending on the features offered. Back EMF, delays in take off and differences in momentum can effect loco performances, even to the point of severe jerking.
A slight miss match in loco speeds is tolerable.
A Back EMF decoder will give you superb starting at Speed Step 1 every time and constant speed running, due to the decoder measuring the voltage between the PWM pulses when the current is zero. This Back EMF voltage when compared to what the decoder should see will either increase or decrease the voltage to the motor to maintain a constant speed. This happens many times a second.
This feature is really fantastic for single engine running, but when locos are consisted together and one is a Back EMF decoder, this causes a running problem depending on what type of decoder, how much the Back EMF effect is etc due the is another motor that is causing a variable load on the motor using a back EMF decoder. This may result in bucking or jerking of the consist and in some cases, cause a very labouring sound.
Momentum settings, (CVs 3 and 4) and the default speed tables (CVs 2, 5 and 6) can increase or decrease this bucking.
Speed Matching the decoders will reduce this effect but if the problem continues, then if the Back EMF effect can be reduced or even turned off, then locos will perform normally but without the added benefit of Back EMF.
Loksound decoders with their delay on start up will stay stationary while other decoders try to start off depending on the amount of momentum set in one or both decoders.
Consisting with these Back EMF decoders may require the operators of these decoders to experiment with CVs to get the best performance when starting.
An example of the problem discussed above was clearly evident when I visited a layout where the owner bought a twin pack of Austrains CLPs, a new release here in Australia that operated together on the prototype.
One loco was fitted with a Loksound sound decoder and the other was fitted with an NCE D14SR. The normal delay of the Loksound really caused a noisy take off. A miss match of the speed tables by the owner probably using the default settings for both decoders caused irregular running of the consist.
A quick fix for this problem, is to adjust the 3 step speed table CV 2, 5 and 6. Looking at the default settings both decoders shows a potential problem.
Default settings for each decoders CV 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 are as follows:
· Loksound 2 = 3 (0-255), 3 = 8 (0-64), 4 = 6 (0-64), 5 = 64 (0-64) and 6 = 22 (0-64)
· NCE 2 = 0 (0-255), 3 = 0 (0-255), 4 = 0 (0-255), 5 = 0 (0-255) really gives a value of 255 and 6 = 0 (0-255) but really gives a value of 127.
· Lenz Back EMF 2 = 0 (0-255), 3 = 6 (0-255), 4 = 5 (0-255), 5 = 255 (0-255) and 6 = 48 (0-255).
The main problem of consisting locos with different brand decoders are the default Speed Curves that provide anything but a speed match. Along with Back EMF and delays in starting like with the Loksound, make consisting difficult, unless there are a few programming adjustments.
Different manufacturers have their different ways of setting up a decoder with default settings. As can be seen from the figures above and the diagram below, they can be very different.
Using the default speed tables of the decoders as shown in the diagram on the left, there will certainly be a miss match in speed. This is compounded by using decoders with Back EMF, in this case the Lenz and Loksound that gives a poor performance as witnessed. With the NCE (non back EMF decoder) equipped loco, usually set up by programming a value into CV 2 to get the loco to move off close to speed step 1, this makes the difference even greater.
Depending on what type of speed curve (table) you want, one like the slower Lenz or the faster Loksound, will determine which one you adjust. I adjusted the Lenz to the Loksound.
To adjust the NCE to the Loksound, adjust CV 6 to 84 (33% of 255) or to the Lenz adjust CV 6 to 49 (19 % of 255). This would vary if you have set CV 2 (refer thin red line) in the NCE to somewhere in the 10 to 50 range, to get better starting.
I have installed a Loksound and a Lenz Back EMF decoders into these identical mechanisms and got a MUCH better speed match that resulted in a far better running performance by just adjusting the Lenz's CV 6 to a value of 86 (34% of 255). I tinkered the Lenz using POM and consisting the two locos uncoupled 6 inches apart and adjusted CV 6 to 100. This gave a pretty good speed match over the whole range except for the initial start up. The Loksound does not move for 5 to 7 seconds but after that, they both work great but made easier in that the mechanisms were identical with the same gearing etc.
So when consisting locos, depending on the type of decoder and the type of mechanisms, will determine if and how much experimenting with CVs has to be done. The above simple fix was without Decoder Pro that many don't have connected to their locos.
Some of the adjustments you can make are:
· Adjust CV 2 to give similar start up value.
· Adjust CV 5 to give similar top speeds. Soundtraxx decoders don’t support CV 5.
· Adjust CV 6 of the decoders to give similar speed curves. This can be a flat or 2 rate speed curve. Soundtraxx and QSI sound decoders DONT support CV 6. You will have to select a speed table with either of these decoders then match other decoders to them.
· Reduce the Back EMF effect or even turn off the Back EMF feature altogether.
· Adjust the momentum.
Speed Matching two locos can be easily achieved by:
Locos with the same mechanisms, that are commonly consisted permanently, that have different decoders in this case, one has sound and one doesn't, a quick adjustment of CV 6 will dramatically improve the speed match. Different mechanism will make speed matching more difficult. Using Decoder Pro does make this easier. See how you go.
As has been discussed, there are many variables in Speed Matching, but a close enough adjustment will do in many cases, that can be easily made by programming a few CVs. The fact that one loco pushes or pulls a little harder than the other, wont matter. It is just when there is a large difference in speed, that there will be running problems. Back EMF can also cause a larger difference
Bankers on my Main North Accurate Speed Matching.
While in many instances on my NSW (Australian) prototype during the mid 60s, locos were consisted together but many times bank engine were used that were connected to the rear of the train to assist the train up the steep 1 in 40 grades across the Liverpool Ranges on my layout at Ardglen. A similar steam engine in some cases but in most cases a different type of loco was used as bankers. On the layout, this will require different operators thus the locos will NOT be consisted. For the operator of the rear engine, it will be a rea task to keep the train in tact.
The addition of temporary consisting and banking over the Range was one reason I chose NCE DCC for my layout and the fact that this extra operational procedure has to be done, was one reason I chose this area. I am hoping I can achieve what I set out to do, without too many accidents.
Building up consists on the fly will be required and operating locos at the same speed will be essential. Accurate Speed Matching will be the only way to make this possible as I don't want to many locos making that trip to the floor.
What I need is all of my locos to go at 10 scale miles per hour at say speed step 30 out of 128. This will enable make the operators life a little easier as they know that basically at the same speed setting and 10 miles an hour up a steep grade for a steam engine sounds good to me. This will be a slightly more difficult task as the two locos ARE connected together by all the wagons/coaches in the train, but one loco on the front and one on the back, while operating on steep 1 in 40 grades around 24 inch radius curves on my Main North without pulling or pushing the wagons/coaches to the floor.
If I could hold the jaws open on a Kadee, this would ensure that the front loco did not pull on the rear loco via the wagons, but the operator has to juggle the slack in the wagons. An extra operating problem that I have, is that during the mid 60s on my Main North layout trains had many 4 wheelers that are even easier to pull off the track. It is going to be tough to find operators of the bankers .
I will have to come up with a procedure with doing this, but it is all that much harder when there are many combinations of decoder and some Back EMF ones included. Will report on my progress later.
Power Cab Software Version No.
This is the version of the PROCAB software installed in the Power Cab and not the software version of the Power Cab. 5 seconds later, the screen shows the version number of the installed POWER CAB software as:
To replace the EPROM, open up the Power Cab and replace the long chip on the R/H side.
For Decoder Pro operation with the USB Interface, the Power Cab needs V1,28C software.
How NCE’s Momentum Button works.
The Momentum Button on Procabs allows easy changes to a loco’s Acceleration and Deceleration rates using 2 button presses instead of 13 when programming CVs 3 & 4 individually.
This means, while you’re operating a heavy Goods train, with high settings of Momentum to simulate the heavy load and when you reach the Yard where you’ll to switch some of the wagons, you don’t have use these higher values. Pressing the Momentum Button and setting a value of 0 (zero Momentum) or 1 (Minimum), will result in easier switching. When finished and you’re coupled up to the train, change the value to what you had previously somewhere between 4 and 8.
The Command Station programs the deceleration rate half of what it programs for the acceleration rate. You can set up the Momentum button multiplier in the SET CMD STA menu.
Engineer throttles like the Cab04 can have this MOMENTUM feature, by programming the OPTION to be a Momentum button, by:
The Option button now acts as a Momentum Button. To change the operating locos momentum CVs (CV 3 and CV 4), press OPTION then the amount of momentum desired 0 for NO momentum and 9 for maximum momentum. For more details, click here for the Cab04E manual.
Current Throttle Software Versions Nos.
Procab – V1.3 – displayed briefly during “start up”, when Procab plugged in.
Power Cab – V1.28C, displayed during “start up”, prior to the normal operating window.
SB3a – V1.28D2
Power Pro Command Station- 03 March 2007. Displayed at “Set Command Station” by pressing PROG/ESC 5 times then press ENTER. New EPROM necessary to upgrade – See NCE.
Radio – V1.5 – Displayed for 2 seconds when radio turned ON.
RB02 – V2.0 – Sticker on base. If no sticker, check to see if the radio system locks up when using Cab Address #49. No locking up, equals V2.0.
The “contacts” under the Buttons on
the Throttles get dirty over time that’s easily fixed.
Disassemble the Throttle and separate the
keypad Membrane from the Circuit Board.
Clean all 35 “contacts” (Procab/PowerCab) by applying some Circuit Board Cleaner or similar
to a piece of cloth and rubbing all the contacts. Leave the Circuit Board to
dry off.
Clean the Keypad Membrane in the sink
with warm water and some detergent by gently washing around the recessed black
domes. Dry with towel and let the Membrane completely “dry out”.
Re-assemble the Throttle and your
throttle will work like new.
Selecting Functions F10 to F28 and verifying the Status of Functions.
To select Functions F10 to F19, press and hold SHIFT and then HEADLIGHT.
“F10 to F19” is displayed in the Functions of the “normal” operating display of the Procab. If you want Function F20 to F28, while holding down SHIFT, press HEADLIGHT TWICE and “F20 to F28” is displayed in the Procab’s display.
An alternative to using the SHIFT + HEADLIGHT combination, programming the Procab’s OPTION Button to “122” and now it is a single button press. Press OPTION ONCE anf you have F10 to F19 available to operate, press OPTION TWICE and now you have F20 to F28 available to operate. See the “Cab Setup” section of the Manual (my hardcopy, p 22).
To see the Status of each Function, press the “EXPN” button on the Procab and two lines of “----------------“ are displayed. First line indicates the “state” of Functions F1 to F14 and second line indicates the “state” of Functions F15 to F28. A Function “ON” State is indicated by a single digit representing the “unit” (tens are not shown). For example if F14 is “activated” then a “4” is displayed in the LAST Upper line, position, indicating F14 is ON.
Displaying the state of F7 through to F28 by pressing the EXPN button is ONLY available for the Procab when PLUGGED IN.
This feature does not work when operating in Wireless (Radio) mode. In Wireless (radio) mode, the EXPN button allows you to Turn OFF or Set Up Radio Time Out Period, of a Wireless Procab. Allocating “Alternate” values of the Procab button does not seem to work.
So operating “plugged in” provides a visual display of the “state” of each Function, where as in Wireless – NO.
If operating on Wireless, then the only way to see if the Function is activated, plug in for a minute, to access display (EXPN). When finished, unplug and turn on the Radio. Not a eloquent solution, but it’s the only one we’ve got. It hasn’t caused that much of an issue with radio operators, because I have not seen any questions about this on the NCE-DCC Yahoo group, about this.
For me, my radio throttle operations, I re-map my functions to be within F0 and F6 with Brake on F7 and Mute of F8. I can only remember a few and if you set a “Standard” for your functions, these can be remembered. To successfully operate all 28 functions, you’d need to have a “Cheat Sheet” attached to your throttle.
My Function Standard – All the Functions I need to know.
I use Procabs and they have a Whistle/Horn, Headlight & Bell Buttons named on the Procabs, so I only need to “remember” a few extra ones.
I can remember F8 is Mute the Sound and F7 is for Brakes.
So for Functions that maybe used numerous times during an “operation” they have to be “single” button activation and in the range of F3 to F6 so they’re seen in the Procab’s display when activated, especially F6 for Heavy Load on my QSIs. Marker Lights etc can be on F9 to F12.
My Function Standard is:
F1 – Bell - Not required on my Aussie NSW locos. On QSI Revolutions, I have my NSW Guard’s Whistle here.
F2 – Whistle/Horn
F3 – Short Whistle/Horn
F4 – Dynamic Brakes.
F5 – Water Stop - Tsunamis.
F6 – Heavy Load - QSI & Loksound Select.
F7 – Brakes.
F8 – Mute.
F9 – Spare/Dim Headlights
F10 – Spare
F11 – Aux Lights 1 – Marker Lights
F12 – Aux Lights 2 – Ditch Lights
While the QSIs and Loksound Selects are easy the re-map function to any number, the Tsunamis have some restrictions. For the Tsunamis, I have had to swap/interchange by using the “Function Group Exchange (F9 – F12 with F5 to F8) option in the Tsunami Set Up of course made easier if you use Decoder Pro under the Advanced Tab, to make them work.
I have about 10 QSI equipped locos that I have disabled the Shutdown feature as I don’t use it and I see operators “locking up” my locos. I love the Heavy Load feature and have moved this from F9 (default) to F6 deliberately so people will know F6 is on or off.
As you can see, some sounds have to miss out. After all how many can you remember? If the extra sound/light has to used, then place that Function on the Loco/Train Card if you use them otherwise you’ll have to have some sort of Cheat Sheet, with your locos.
The Short Whistle/Horn will become very important when I operate more prototypically with a Banker (rear end pusher), as individual drivers signal each other as we cross the Liverpool Ranges on my Main North layout.
Use my experiences and my Function Standard to make your own Standard.
The Horn/Whistle does NOT stop blowing after the Button is released.
Increase the “Number of Horn OFF Packets” from the default of 2 to say 8, in the Setup Command Station parameters.
Cab06 does not show the correct Loco Address.
If using a Power Pro system prior to Eprom version March 1 2007B, when using a Cab06 and entering Loco addresses above “4095”, the Cab06 will not display the correct numbers/loco address.
The Command Station Eprom will need to be upgraded. Contact NCE.
When the Cab06 was first released, an Eprom to upgrade the Power Pro box was included but this Eprom is no longer supplied with Cab06s.
Using an SB3/5 or Power Cab system or using a Procab using a Power Pro with pre 2007B C/S software, the displayed address will be what is “dialled up”.
For the fastest display response on a Cab06r always try and set the cab address in the range of 18 to 49. If a Cab06R is set to the lower address range of 2 to 17 it will have a slower display update response, due to the “refreshing” the displays of the Procabs using addresses 2 to 17
With the SB3a or a Power Cab, you’ll have to use low cab addresses, but if you have a Power Pro system always set the cab06 in the high cab address range for the best performance.
If using radio Cab06s, there also is a RB02 upgrade (V2.1) to provide faster and better Cab06 operation. Send your RB02 into NCE.
Cab Addresses for ALL NCE Throttles.
Just as a loco needs a unique address for independent control, so do all the NCE Throttles (Cabs).
All Throttles come from NCE using the default Cab Address 2 for Procabs or Cab Address 3 for Cab06 or Cab Address 5 Cab 04/05. If you don’t change the address of a second or subsequent throttle, from the default address, you may see weird running, un-commanded or loss of control of your trains.
Use of Cab Addresses 8, 18 and 49 for Radio Throttles will depend on the software in the RB01/02 Radio Base Stations being used. See the “RB02 Upgrade to V2.0” topic below.
Addresses are:
RB02 Upgrade to V2.0 – The RB02 Base Station was upgraded in September 2009. NCE started shipping V2.0 RB02s in September 2009. Problems with response, runaways, and Cab Addresses 8, 18 and 49, were fixed. Runaways when using radio have been all but eliminated. It is recommended that all Wireless users get their Base Station upgraded by NCE or for Aussies, send them to the Model Railroad Craftsman in Sydney.
Base Stations with V2.0 software, will be identified with an “RB02” Sticker on the packaging.
If you are not sure about the status of your RB02, there are a couple of checks:
1. Using a Procab with its Cab Address on 8, make sure that a “second Clock” does not replace the “LOC No” on the Top Line of the display, over time.
2. Using a Cab04/05/06 with Cab Address 49, the system does NOT “lock up”.
For radio operation for Pre V2.0 RB02 ENABLE the Radio Fix in the Command Station Set Up. For V2.0 RB02 DISABLE the Radio Fix.
Note: Entering a Cab Address of “0” will reset the Throttle to default setting that includes to the default Cab Address: Procab – 2, Cab04 – 5 and Cab04E – Address Switch Left 5 & Right 6.
Resetting the Throttles – Program the address of the throttle to “0”.
If for some reason you suspect a problem with your throttle, reset your throttle. This will return all the programmable settings to their factory default values. To do this for:
Important: Reassign the original/new address to the “reset” throttle, if using more than one throttle after a reset.
What Happens if the Command Station Battery is FLAT.
For general operation of the system, controlling locos and playing trains, is NOT affected by a FLAT battery in the Command Station. If a consist is called up or a route Macro selected, these WONT work as all the details stored in the Command Station memory would have been lost, with a flat battery.
If operating with a lot of consists and Macros, change the C/S battery with power on to keep all this information in the C/S memory. Change the battery every few years. NCE says these last 5 years. See the System Manual.
Mark Gurries wrote on the NCE-DCC@yahoogroups.com on Wednesday, 25 April 2012 8:03 AM, in response to “System Unresponsive”
about what happens with a flat battery.
A Weak, dead or disabled (Jumper removed) battery will cause the system to NOT remember when you turn off your system, your:
1) Command Station settings
2) Locomotives addresses stored in recall slots correctly
3) Decoder settings for each locomotive such as the speed step mode if 128 speed steps is chosen.
Although this is not a big deal, it also slows down the time it takes to start up the system because it thinks it is starting up for the very first time every time is starts up. Not only can it lose settings, but a weak battery can corrupt the command station such that is does strange things when you turn it back on. This latter is far more common problem that people do not even realize is happening. They simply sense something is wrong and restart the system which seems to clear out the problem. The problem is the system is unable to report a weak battery.
The problem will be eliminated in the next CSO3 command station for it will be like the Power Cab which does not need a battery to remember the settings. Problem is gone.
What’s the matter if the system doesn’t start up.
A flat Command Station battery will NOT cause this problem see above.
A Procab display that seems to be stuck on the Start Up display can be caused for a few reasons and easy troubleshooting can eliminate a few of the problems.
A frozen screen display of "NCE PROCAB V1.3 CAB ADDRESS = 02"
A frozen screen display of "NCE PROCAB V1.3 CAB ADDRESS = 02" is typical of the Procab receiving 12 Volts DC (Pins 2 & 5) but NO Cab Bus data (Pins 3 & 4).
Swap cables to see that it is not a faulty Cable.
If this happens to ALL your throttles, this could be caused by a dislodged Command Station Upper Circuit Board, a problem that could have happened from a "jolt" during some form of movement or the contacts have "oxidized" over time, a common issue with pins/contacts associated with low level signals. In my real job I have rectified numerous defects by re-racking a computer/component.
Remove the PH Box cover and mark the “edges” of the Upper Circuit Board on the back of the PH Box, to ensure you correctly “line up” the Circuit Board on re-installation. It is easy to misalign the Circuit Board. Remove the Upper Circuit Board and re-install it to reseat it and to "clean" the Pins.
If the problem is with ONE throttle, while others work okay, the issue could be Gold Wipers/Fingers in one of the RJ12 sockets in the Procab or the NCE Power Pro, UTPs etc, has been pushed all the way down and not making contact any more or it's intermittent. Inspect the gold "fingers" in all the associated RJ12 sockets, including the Command Station, to see if any are too low, especially the middle two - Pins 3 & 4, the Cab Bus data contacts. Rectify as necessary. If okay replace the Throttle Cable.
How the Emergency Button works.
If you press the EMERGENCY STOP button ONCE, only the currently selected locomotive will immediately stop. To get it going again just rotate the throttle setting a bit and it will start right back up at the same speed it was going before you pressed the emergency stop.
If you press the EMERGENCY STOP button rapidly THREE times in quick succession, the power to the entire layout will shut down and ALL locomotives will stop. The throttle number that initiated the Emergency Stop, will be displayed in ALL throttles, indicating which operator (throttle number had the problem. To resume normal operation after this total layout shut down, cycle the power to the Power Pro system.
How to identify which version of the EPROM is installed in your Power Pro Command Station.
Cab Bus - How to wire up and when to fit a Wall Wart
Cab Bus cables buy or make: The NCE Cab Bus cables are NOT normal telephone extension cables as Pins 3 and 4 swap around (crossover). Without re-terminating one end of the cable (RJ12 plug), these telephone cables CANNOT be used for our Cab Bus cables.
Looking at the plug END (not the end where the wires go in) of an RJ12 plug, with the locating clip facing UP, Pin 1 is the LEFT HAND pin. For a correct cable, Pin 1 to Pin 1, Pin 2 to Pin 2, through to Pin 6 to Pin 6. Refer the System or UTP manuals for pictures.
Cab Bus topography: With the Command Station centrally located, the Cab Bus can be split in two by installing a UTP at a suitable location acting as a splitter with these two legs going off to feed the layout.
Cab Bus power demands: The Command Station has a capability of providing about 500 mAs (0.5 A). Depending on the amount and type of throttles plugged into the Cab Bus, an extra power supply may be required to supplement the Command Station. The current required by each component that can be plugged into the Cab Bus, are:
It can be easily seen that 4 Procabs plugged in, the Command Stations current capability is approaching the limit. This does not include the cab bus wiring voltage drop. Operating throttles with degraded power supply, can cause intermittent operation.
The standard NCE UTP (Universal Throttle Panel) has a DC power socket already fitted that makes fitting an external power supply commonly called a Wall Wart, very easy.
NOTE: When installing the UTPs, make sure the Cab Bus wiring going towards the Command Station is plugged into the RJ12 socket named CMD STA. This provides the correct orientation, so that downstream Wall warts don't back feed power into the Command Station.
Wallwarts The 12 Volt 0.5 to 1.0 Amp Wall wart plug must have a 1/8 inch or 3.5 MM plug with the CENTRE pin, the POSITIVE.
For us Aussies, a Jaycar, 1.0 Amp DC Slimline Switch mode Power Adaptor, Part Number MP-3137 at A$21.95 complete with 7 plugs including the 3.5 MM one for the UTP, is the go. Make sure you get the orientation of the universal plug correct. Positive is the Centre Pin.
In the diagram below, the Splitter UTP divides the Cab Bus into 3, two throttle Cab Busses and one Radio RB02/Repeater bus. Each leg having its own 12 volt 0.5 to 1.0 Amp Wallwart. This arrangement with a Wallwart every 30 feet, ensures that there will not be more than 3 Procab in ONE Wallwart ZONE. The first two UTPs are powered by the Command Station.
Each individual layout will have different Cab Bus requirements, so there is NO exact configuration, except power the Cab Bus with a Wallwart, every 30 or so feet.
If operating radio, it has been suggested to supply the RB02 and Repeaters with their own separate Wallwart power supply.
Terminators comprising of a 120 ohm 1/2 watt resistor and a .01 uF 50 Volt capacitor, connected in series, reduce the likelihood of noise on the Cab Bus affecting Cab Bus communications. Thoroughly recommended.
For more details and description, click here for the UTP Manual.
RJ12 Connections and Making Cab Bus Cables
All Cab Bus, throttle cables and RB02/RPT1 cables are straight through data cables. This is DIFFERENT to the common crossover telephone cable. If telephone type cables are to be used, then one of the RJ12 connectors has to be cut off and a new one crimped on with the correct orientation, shown left. Using this method, correct crimping is easily checked.
For NCE cables Pin 1 goes to Pin 1, Pin 2 goes to Pin 2 through to Pin 6 goes to Pin 6. The system manual has a schematic diagram showing the cable with two ends and I even find this a little confusing to work out.
Holding both ends of the cable with the SAME orientation of the RJ12 plug, that is looking at the ends (end on) with the tang facing up, the coloured wires of EACH plug should be in the SAME Pin location as shown in the photo. As can be easily seen, the wires in BOTH plugs with the tang up, from left to right are White, Black, Red, Green, Yellow and Blue.
If your cable has different colours, MAKE SURE when looking at the ends like this, the relevant colour is in the SAME place in EACH plug. When crimping the second RJ12 plug onto the cable, have the first RJ12 plug orientated the same way to help for correct placement of wires. When completed, have BOTH RJ12 plugs orientated the SAME way on the bench, using a multimeter, check Pin 1 to Pin 1 for continuity. Do the same for each of the other 3 or 5 pins of the plugs.
If you don't have continuity on one wire then the crimp was unsuccessful and probably due to the incorrect combination of solid and stranded cable with their RJ12 connectors for solid or stranded wire versions. Using the incorrect combination, the cable will prematurely fail. Re-crimp using the correct RJ12 plugs for the relevant stranded or non stranded wire.
Making 4 conductor throttle and Cab Bus cables is similar, but ONLY use the INSIDE 4 pins. The 2 outside pins of each RJ12 plug are NOT used.
If you don't want to buy crimpers, plugs and cable to make your Cab Bus cables etc, Bruce at Litchfield Station has 7, 14, 25 and 50 foot cables already made up at very reasonable prices. Gee why would you bother making them yourself? See them at:
Power Pro Box 2 and 4 Pin Connectors.
These can be purchased from NCE, their dealers or from Digikey (links embedded) etc. Part Numbers are:
2 Pin - 277-1161-ND
4 Pin - 277-1163-ND
Radio System
The NCE Radio was upgraded to Generation 3 better known as “Radio V1.5”, in September 2007 (see the FAQs for V1.5), that provides performance just the same as being plugged in. The “missing button presses”, less than 30 feet of range and the critical Base Station location, of the PRE V1.5 Radio, is now a thing of the past.
Version “V1.5” Radio throttles have been shipped by NCE since late 2007. Many of the owners of pre V1.5 radio have had their throttles upgraded by NCE etc.
Positive recognition of all button presses along with the over 100 feet of range, have meant that the location of the RB01/02 is not as critical as before. The RB01/02 can be mounted at a “central” location, on or under the layout. If your RB01/02 is mounted on the roof, there’s no need to move it. If large layout like a large Club layout, experiences reception “dead spots”, then a Repeater will be necessary.
Radio users that have upgraded their Radio throttles have commented on the massive improvement in performance and range. Some radio users have not witnessed the issue of PRE V1.5 radio, in their operating “environment” and felt that upgrades weren’t necessary. Their PRE V1.5 radio will operate with all existing and new radio products but may find when there is a “mix” of radio versions, this may cause slowing down of the system response.
There was an “Upgrade” for the RB02 Base Station in September 2009. NCE started shipping V2.0 RB02s in September 2009. Problems with response, runaways, and Cab Addresses 8, 18 and 49, were fixed. Runaways when using radio have been all but eliminated, recommending that all Radio system users have their RB02s, upgraded. V2.0 RB02s are identified with a Sticker.
How much current do the radio throttles draw?
Earlier Procabs drew higher current from the batteries but later throttles draw:
· Procab – 18mAs with the back light OFF. 58 mAs with the back light ON.
· Cab04 – 40mAs
The reason Cab04s draw more current than a Procab under normal operation (back light off), is that Cab04s only use two batteries for a total of 2.4 to 3.0 volts and the Procab uses 4 batteries for a total of 4.8 to 6.0 volts. For both throttles, this is a “power requirement” of approximately 0.1 watt.
Can you use rechargeable batteries.
Any AAA battery type can be used to power the radio board, due to the special “Sepic” regulator being used. So long as the batteries can supply the required current, the regulator supplies the correct voltage to the board. This allows the use of the lower 1.2volt NiCd or NiMH rechargeable batteries, instead of the 1.5 volt dry cells. The Cab04 only use 2 cells and a voltage of 2.4 volts is ok.
NiMH batteries now are available in the 700to 900 mAH, which makes them very suitable for use in our throttles. Rechargeable batteries when compared to dry cells, have a lower “capacity” and a higher “self discharge” rate (throttle off). These batteries will require charging more often, compared to the replacement of dry cells (alkalines).
Mark Gurries said about “Self Discharge”: The current the battery consumes by itself just standing there not connected to anything. All rechargeable batteries have a very high self discharge rate compared to non-rechargeable batteries. Example, in a 3 YEAR period, a Alkaline will retain over 90%+ of it original capacity. A NiCd or NiMH will have about 60% of its original capacity in 3 MONTHS”.
New generation NiMH batteries can keep their charge for years. See: http://www.eneloop.info/ Google "Sanyoeneloop NiMH batteries" for a suitable vendor.
How long will rechargeable batteries last between “charges”
Using 800 – 900 mAH NiMH batteries, basically a:
In each case, when the LED illuminates on aCab04 or when the screen back light is illuminated on a Procab, there will be more current drawn (Cab04 – 10 mAs and Procab 40 mAs) that will effect the amount of time, but since these two modes of operation are only on for about 5 - 10% of the time, this will only reduce the time by approximately 1 – 2 hours.
“Self Discharge” (see above), will impact more on battery life and this can/will give the impression of poor time between charges, if you/we consider just the length of time of the operating session. Dry cells are a better alternative for very intermittent use of the radio.
Can the “time” of illumination of the Procab’s Back Light be adjusted?
NO. For purposes of conserving power, the backlight is turned off automatically after 5 seconds. Operating the “Shift” button at any time will illuminate the back light for another 10 seconds. The screen back light can be enabled to be illuminated ALL the TIME by a modification on the Procab circuit board.
Identifying Throttles with V1.5 Radio. - photo of the initial V1.5 Radio Board.
Procab: During “start up” of a Procab, the Cab Address is displayed for 1 second and then if the following is displayed for a couple of seconds, prior to displaying the normal operating display, the Throttle has the upgraded V1.5 radio upgrade:
“NCE Radio V1.5” for the initial release of the V1.5 Upgrade, or
“V1.5A” for later Throttles with Internal Antenna or
“V1.5B” for Throttles released after the introduction of the Cab06.
Any other number like 1.4, 1.3 then the Procab does not have the latest.
Alternatively, with the Power Pro Box (Command Station) UN-POWERED, turn on the Procab and the display will “lock up” on the first display and it will show V1.5 (or V1.5A or V1.5B).
Cab04/05: No obvious indications other than operating range in the order of 100+ feet with V1.5. If you still need to confirm whether you have V1.5 Radio, remove the back of the Cab04 and compare with the photo click here or the above link.
Cab06: All Cab06s have V1.5B.
In October 2009 the RB02 was upgraded to V2.0 to rectify Cab Address Numbers, namely #49 locking up the system, double Clock displays with #8, runaways and slower response with more than a few Procabs/Cab04s, plugged in. NCE has been shipping V2.0 RB02 since.
This upgrade did not improve the range of the radio.
RB02 shipped since about October 2009 have V2.0 Upgrade with a “Sticker” attached to the Base Station and packaging box. Some slipped through without identification.
An improvement in the range of the radio CANNOT be used to identify whether the RB02 has V2.0 so to identify if the RB02 is a PRE V2.0 the following can be tried:
If you can reproduce any of the above faults, you have a PRE V2.0 RB02.
If you cannot reproduce any of the above faults, then it’s a good chance that you have a V2.0 or better RB02.
If you have a PRE V2.0 RB02 and you don’t have any problems, then it’s up to you to upgrade the RB02, but be mindful of these issues especially if you have runaways on Radio. Multiple operator layouts shout should be upgraded, especially clubs ones.
Radio Throttle does NOT Start Up.
If after turning on a Radio Throttle the screen displays “NCE 12:00AM & RADIO V1.5 ID=0” with the Top LED flashing, check the following:
1. Make sure the Power Pro system is turned on.
2. Check the Cab Address of the “problem” Throttle is NOT the same as another operating Throttle.
3. Make sure there are NO Cab Bus items like Mini Panels, AIUs etc using the same Cab Address.
If all of the above items are okay, then there a couple of causes and it depends on whether the actual “TIME” in the Procab’s display is stuck on “12:00” or changes.
Bad Connection (cable), to the RB02.
If the Procab on Start up shows “NCE 12:00AM RADIO V1.5 ID=0” then you have a bad connection to the RB02 because the clock display has NOT updated.
Use a known good cable and connect the RB02 directly to the Command Station.
RB02 Layout I.D. number has changed.
Note: Later RB02 and Upgraded RB02 (V2.0), there is no Layout I.D. capability.
If when you turn on your Procab and the display stops showing “NCE 6:15 AM RADIO V1.5 ID=0”, before the normal operating window is displayed, then your RB02 has for some reason, changed it’s Layout I.D. There is no communication FROM your throttle to the RB02 with the occasional flicker of the “polling” LED on the Procab. The fact that the clock display has “updated” (not showing 12:00AM), indicates there is communication TO the Procab but NOT from Procab.
To change the RB02 Layout I.D
With RB02 DISCONNECTED from the Cab Bus.
Plug a Procab into PORT A of the RB02
Plug the Cab Bus connector into the SINGLE “BUS” RJ12 socket on the RB02
The Procab display will show
RB02 VERSION 1.0
LAYOUT ID (0-3) = n
The flashing cursor shows the “changed” number. It should read the default “0”
Press “0” and ENTER. Then displays
SETUP FINISHED
--UNPLUG CAB—
Your radio system should now start up.
Yard Mode does NOT work when using RADIO Throttles.
By default, the RADIO FIX setting in the Command Station is set to “ON”, resulting in Yard mode being disabled on Radio Throttles.
If you want Yard mode, select the RADIO FIX to “OFF” in your Command Station settings.
Adding an ON/OFF External Switch to a Cab04.
An ON/OFF switch can be installed in the Cab04s, (in fact for all NCE throttles) instead of using the Horn button.
To turn on the Cab04 NOW, you DON’T have to press the HORN button anymore, just operate the switch. The Cab04 will NOT turn off until you operate the switch. You don’t have to adjust the Time Out period by programming the Option button as mentioned previously.
Bob Foltz poste a photo in the NCE Yahoo “Photos”, select “Miscellaneous” or click on this Tiny url below for a photo of the modification.
Track Wiring, turnouts etc.
These and many other topics are covered at Allan Gartner's Wiring for DCC.
AWG - Wire size (gauge) and Current rating.
The requirement of heavier gauge wiring for DCC layouts is not due to voltage drops slowing down trains/locos etc BUT so the Booster can sense a SHORT CIRCUIT to enable it to remove the power to the layout, as the Boosters can supply higher (5 Amps, some 8 and 10 Amps) compared to DC Controller (Power Packs). If the Booster does not sense a short circuit and allows say 4.5 Amps of current to continually flow to “the” short, then some damage could be done dissipating the 63 Watts of heat (14 Volts x 4.5 Amps), for example the same amount of heat from a large Soldering Iron. This is why we need “heavier” wiring for DCC. Of course with thicker wiring, voltage drops causing reductions in speed due to the wiring etc, will be reduced.
With a 5% voltage drop, reduction in speed is hardly noticeable.
The resistance of the wiring (size of conductor) should NOT restrict the current to a point that a short circuit would not be sensed by the Booster. For a 5 Amp system, a “Coin Test” (placing a Coin across the rails), should trip the Booster at any place on the layout. If it does not, the most probable cause is thin Power Bus wiring or not enough track droppers. Rectify as necessary.
A Power Bus comprises of TWO wires. The current goes “out” to the loco, through one wire, to/through the loco and “back” to the Booster via the other wire. The length of the wiring to be considered for calculating the voltage drop is TWICE the “physical” distance. So a Power Bus length of 25 feet, equates to 50 feet of wire (two 25 foot wires (out and back)).
Wire information from Powerstream
|
Wire Size AWG |
Acceptable Voltage Drop @ 5 Amps during a Short Circuit. |
Resistance of Wire |
Voltage Drop to Loco/s drawing 2 Amps & 5 Amps (short), at the end of the Power Bus. |
||
|
Bus Length |
Wire required |
Ohms/Foot |
Total Ohms |
|
|
|
20 |
|
|
.01 |
60 Feet .61 |
2A – 1.2 Volts – 8.7%. 5A – 21% |
|
18 |
30 |
60 |
.006385 |
.38 |
2A - .76 Volts – 5.5%. 5A - 14% |
|
16 |
40 |
80 |
.004020 |
.32 |
2A - .64 Volts – 4.6%. 5A - 11% |
|
14 |
70 |
140 |
.002525 |
.36 |
2A - .71 Volts – 5.1% 5A - 13% |
|
12 |
100 |
200 |
.001588 |
.32 |
2A - .64 Volts – 4.5% 5A - 11% |
|
10 |
130 |
260 |
.000999 |
.26 |
2A - .53 Volts – 3.7% 5A - 9% |
As can be seen for a 30 foot Power Bus using 18 AWG wire with an operating current of 2.0 Amps, would create a voltage drop of ¾ of a Volt – 5.5% and would be hardly noticeable.
Using the next smaller 20 AWG wire for a similar 30 foot length Power Bus or a longer say 40 feet Power Bus using 18 AWG, would cause a higher voltage drop for operating locos with a corresponding increase in Voltage Drop @ 5 Amps, to 21%. This would still let the Booster “sense” 5 Amp short circuit, necessary for short circuit protection.
What has to be avoided is the possibility of a short circuit going un-noticed, that did NOT trip the Booster.
This would be in most cases be due to thin wire, especially if a layout was DC, then DCC was connected. Without the Booster tripping, an no-noticed short circuit causing a current of say 4.0 Amps, would mean 56 Watts would have to dissipated. The most probable result would be damaged wiring. This is why when connecting DCC to a layout, the “Coin Test” should be done.
I have 45 feet (90 Ft of wire) Power Buses using 10 Amp 3.0 MM Automotive cable equivalent to 17AWG, on my layout and the Booster trips with a short circuit. I cannot notice any slowing of my locos due to an “excessive” voltage drop.
My Track Feeders (droppers) are 0.5 mm solid single conductor wire equivalent to 24 AWG. Maximum length 6 inches. I find this easy to work with and I solder the droppers to the side of the track, away from the operator. This way you cannot see the solder joints.
Allan Gartner's Wiring for DCC. site for HO suggests:
Attaching Track Droppers to the Power Bus.
This topic creates a fair bit of discussion on the groups and I cannot believe model railroaders want to fit IDC (Insulation Displacement Connectors) instead of soldering. IDC from IDCs from 3M commonly called Scotch locks are the ones that are being used under some DCC layouts.
IDC only work if they are used with the gauge of the wire that each IDC is designed for. Select the one that fits your wiring. If your wires fall out of the range that the IDC is designed for, then solder the connections as incorrectly sized IDC fail regularly.
In each power district, I drill two separate holes, 2 to 3 inches apart in the baseboard supports and thread the 10 Amp auto cable through these individually. This keeps the individual Power bus wires separated. I use wire strippers (Jaycar Electronics in Australia part no TH-1827 or similar), click here to see, that are easy to slip over the wire and strip back about an inch of insulation and then solder the track feeder no IDCs here.
Click here for a photo using the Wire Strippers on my Power Bus.
If the Power District is greater than 25 feet from the Booster, twist the “supply” wires, 3 twists per foot (300mm) “to the Power District” then “lay” the wires through two holes drilled 2 to 3 inches apart in the baseboard supports. This wiring method for longer than 25 feet Power Buses provides a twisted Power Bus to reduce the interference caused by long bus runs and easy attachment of Track Droppers with the parallel wires.
I use 1156s for power division and install the 1156 right at the area so I can see when I have shorted. Some districts are 50 feet from my NCE DCC 5 Amp system and I twist the power bus wires to the district then separate them.
Why do there seem to be more shorts in DCC.
There are no more shorts in DCC than in DC.
A momentary short at the points/turnout, typically the back of the wheel contacting the point rail (moveable one) in DC the loco just rolls through with maybe a slight hesitation because of the slow acting short protection with DC Cabs,
BUT in DCC this same momentary short causes the whole layout to shut down due to fast acting Circuit Breaker inside the Power Pro or Booster, that’s necessary with 5 Amp DCC systems. It takes the Power Pro/Booster 2 seconds to reset.
If using power districts, not such an issue, only the area where the short happened, looses its power. Along with easier troubleshooting, this global shut down is the major reason to wire your layout with power districts.
Shorts happen on the layout due to:
This is just human error through a lack of concentration.
Using your NMRA Gauge, regauge your wheel sets.
Similar to above, but depending on track, may have to apply some .010 styrene strip for insulation.
Correct track alignment for better operation.
Adjust switch and/or point blades etc for correct operation.
Remove equipment and rectify if faulty.
Locate and repair the fault.
The bad side of all of this is if we don’t do anything about what happened on our DC layouts, it may play havoc on our DCC layouts. All of us will get different results when we go to DCC. Some layout will have none or very minimal shorts that would be tolerable to a few operators to layouts that may have many shorts that become intolerable. Wiring the layout with Power Districts, only the district where the short happened has power removed. Operating with the same amount of shorts, becomes tolerable.
Preventing the above momentary shorts by correcting out of gauge wheel sets and physically aligning track better will certainly reduce the shorts. Operating on finer scale turnouts than the code 100 in HO, the clearances and gaps are smaller, and even wheel sets that are in gauge, will create a momentary short because of the rocking and sideways movement that happens at any turnout, even the large radius versions.
Because of this undesirable OPPOSITE polarity of the adjacent rails on a turnout, many operators have modified their turnouts by what is called, making your turnouts DCC Friendly. There is a whole section at Allan Gartner’s Wiring for DCC on how to do this. Do you have to make all your turnouts DCC Friendly, which depends on you, the stage of layout building (new or existing) and how you approach the problem. See the topic below.
I have not made any of my turnouts/points DCC Friendly, but I operate with 1156 lamps for power division and one of the great features of doing this, is that the DCC layout is less sensitive and those momentary shorts that happen, on my layout and others that use 1156, don’t shutdown the booster. See Using 1156s.on my web site and 1156s for Power Division in these notes
Do you have to make all your Turnouts/Points DCC Friendly NO, I haven't, so you don't have to, either.
The Achilles Heel of DCC is this very topic Why do I have make my turnouts DCC Friendly when they all worked ok in DC - What's this all about?
I can imagine a prospective or new entrant to DCC being overawed by the prospect of having to remove all of his existing turnouts, to make a modification to them. In fact I would go so far as to say this would turn off anyone contemplating switching to DCC and saying If I have to do that, then forget all the benefits of DCC, Ill operate quite happily, switching blocks swapping cabs etc the way I have been for years on DC.
I like many others, connected my existing layout to my new NCE DCC system and ran trains without lifting a turnout. I still have not made any of my 100 plus turnouts DCC Friendly. According to some of the DCC clinics I have attended (except my own) the presenters talk a lot about making turnouts DCC Friendly.
As explained in the above topic Shorts on the layout the reason people suggest making turnouts DCC Friendly is the opposite polarity of adjacent tracks on a Peco Electrofrog or similar turnout, a train moving through the turnout, the back of the wheels are very close to the opposite polarity point rail. With an out of gauge wheel set and/or out of gauge track combined with the rocking of the wagon/loco itself as it negotiates the turnout, a wheel can sometimes create a short.
Momentary shorts also can happen on Peco Insulfrog or similar turnouts at the insulated frog V point where a wheel tread bridges the insulation.
Modifying the turnouts to be DCC Friendly is NOT the only way to reduce these shorts and this method certainly does not have to be done on your turnouts, to operate DCC successfully.
Before ripping out on your existing turnouts, I suggest you operate the layout as is no modifications to your turnouts and just see what shorts you get. Maybe the occasional momentary short you can live with. This is certainly easier than worrying about and possibly removing turnouts. Operating this way, you will be able to see what actually causes your own shorts.
Correcting the out of gauge wheel sets and misaligned track that cause these shorts in the first place will reduce shorts to a level that is quite acceptable and this is certainly an attractive alternative to making the turnouts DCC Friendly on your existing layout. This will save a lot of time, effort and frustration. So to me making turnouts DCC Friendly is not the only solution to this common problem.
One of the benefits of making turnouts DCC Friendly is the power for the point rail no longer depends on the physical contact between the point and stock rail or the little tabs/contacts under the point rail that contact the underneath of the stock rail as it is case of Peco turnouts. This becomes even more important when the track has been ballasted for a few years.
My solution here is to add feeders and links, when these contacts fail by installing a switch of some kind that changes over the power to these point rails when the turnout is operated. You never know it may never fail, only time will tell. This then is a gradual repair compared to a monumental job when first installing DCC.
DCC Friendly turnouts still short out when an operator runs against an incorrectly set turnout. To correct this problem, the operators have to be more vigilant, it is just a matter of routine, to check your road.
Now that I have provided alternatives, modifying your turnouts to be DCC Friendly is not imperative as some modellers in the DCC world would have you believe, it is just an option and as far as I am concerned a needless time consuming exercise.
Now a final word on this topic, these momentary shorts that happen on both DC and DCC layouts, its just that DCC has to shutdown because of the large amounts of power involved as discussed in the above topic Why do there seem to be more shorts in DCC.
One further method to eliminate these shutdowns from momentary shorts, is to use 1156 a 12 volt 27 watt automotive brake lamp. See 1156s for Power Division for further details.
When laying track and turnouts on a new layout or extensions on an existing layout, you can decide if you make your turnouts DCC Friendly as this is so easy prior to installation.
August 2014 After building the layout for over 20 years, I am finally adding scenery and ballasting my track. What a change scenery makes to the layout.
Over these years I have had 2 Peco Electrofrog Points/Turnout fail, the Point Rail loses contact with the Stock Rail. Since adding ballast to my Newstan Mine area, I have had had another Peco Electrofrog fail, for the same reason. While I was aware of this “issue”, in my haste to get the ballast down, I forgot to modify the Point.
NOW, prior to finalising any section of track before ballasting, I remove all of the Points and make them DCC Friendly.
NOW I wish I had chosen Peco Insulfrogs instead of Electrofrogs.
Insulfrogs only need the two links between the Point and Stock rails.
Electrofrogs on the other hand, need the two links installed between the Point and Stock rails, as above BUT need two (really 4) cuts in the rails to isolate the Frog area. Unless you are going to “automate” your Points with the associated Motor, Switch etc, the dead section is now much longer (nearly twice as long), in an Electrofrog compared to an Insulfrog. It was this shorter section of dead track in an Electrofrog compared to an Insulfrog, why we chose Electrofrogs in the first place.
Now if someone asks me which Points should you chose, I’d say Insufrogs.
Whether the “dead” Frog area of Points affects your locos will depend on the type of loco you run. Most diesels have all wheel pick up over two bogies making the “Electrical Footprint” long enough but Steam locos are a different beast and most don’t have all wheel pick up. My “out of the box” 4-6-0 Austrains C36 Tender loco that has 18 wheels, only the 6 Drivers pick up power. This makes this loco a 0-6-0 loco where 45 mm of “Dead Frogs” will create havoc. Tender Pick-ups have been added but these are not 100% effective – far from it.
Unless you “power” your Frogs that will require heaps of effect/time, some of your locos may/will have problems, after making the Points/Turnouts DCC Friendly.
On my locos due that I don’t intend to power my Frogs, I have fitted the TCS KA1/2 Keep Alive modules. Click here for my “alive” web site page entry.
The Coin Test
When there is a short on a DCC layout, power should be removed or at least reduced, due some damage could be done because the full power of the DCC booster can be applied to this short. A simple test to see if the booster would trip is to lay a piece of metal across the track at many locations and verify the booster trips. A coin out of someone's pocket was always an easy way to find metal object to create a short, hence the term Coin Test.
If the coin test did not trip the booster, the most probable cause would be small gauge wiring of track feeders or the power bus.
A Coin Test on a layout using 1156s for short protection and power management, like my layout, will only cause the 1156 to illuminate brilliantly and restrict the current flowing through the short to 2.1 Amps. This is 29.4 watts, but if the 1156 is placed strategically so that it is easily seen by the operator, then the appropriate action taken immediately. Normally, by pushing the loco back from the incorrectly set of points or turnout.
How much current do locos draw?
Early discussion on DCC recommended that 1.0 Amp per HO loco should be used when planning how many boosters will be required for a particular layout. This has now been restated at about .5 to .75 Amps. Using an Ammeter I made by adding a $2 bridge rectifier to one of my track feeders from my booster and using my Digital Multimeter, I was able to make my own measurements and throw all those previous recommendations in the bin. This is what is happening on my layout, you can to.
I suggest you make you own $2 Ammeter, and see for yourself.
All the locos on my HO layout have small can motors. This type of motor has replaced the current hungrier open frame motor. Locos made in the last 15 or so years have these smaller, lower current draw can motors. The current draws are:.
The variation is due to the load it is pulling and the type of mechanism and motor. Contrary to what a lot of people think, sound locos only draw about 10 20% more current. I was very surprised on how little the current draw is of all my locos.
Another thing to remember is, not all locos the operators are using are running at the SAME time, some operators may be parked at a station or switching or waiting for a signal, dispatcher commands, for another train to pass etc. At my club layout with 6 to 8 operators using about 10 locos, some trains double headed and some sound, the Ammeter indicated 1.5 to 2.0 Amps, all night.
Use SLIPPING current not STALL current for determining the decoder current capacity.
A loco motor would only ever STALL if the gearbox jammed up due to some mechanical fault with the driveline. How often does this happen, hardly ever, I’ve never had it happen to me and others that have been in the hobby much longer than me say that it rarely happens.
Why base the decoder current selection on a scenario that rarely happens.
A situation that happens regularly, is the loco stalls on a hill or runs into a stationary train, the wheels are spinning, not jammed solid. There is a big difference between the two, the slipping current is only about a quarter of the stall current. For example my NSW AR Kits 45 Class diesel, Slipping Current = 320 mAs and the Stall Current = 1.4 Amps (1400 mAs).
Using the above example, using the STALL Current value, I would have to use a 1.3 Amp D13SR or similar. Using the SLIPPING Current value, I could use a 1.0 Amp Z14SR Amp decoder or a 0.5 Lenz Gold Mini. The advantages here are enormous if space is at a premium.
Using the same set of figures, I could not fit a Soundtraxx 1.0 Amp DSD-100LC or the latest 1.0 Amp Tsunami decoders. I am aiming to fit sound to all of my locos, so I would be in a bind if I used the STALL current value. Later decoders including the Tsunami, have overload protection.
20 of my locos have 1.0 Amp sound decoders and they are all still operating, 3 to 4 years later. 50% of my locos have stall currents in excess of 1.3 Amps. Most modellers that are using Soundtraxx DSD sound decoders, are exceeding the specifications of the decoder, with no reports of damaging decoders due to normal every day running, so no need to use the STALL figure.
Mark Gurries reply to a message on the Yahoo Soundtraxx group after Bruce at Litchfield Station reply to Tsunami Micro and decoder current determination on Aug 4 07.
True that every time we start and engine or transition through a motor operation where the rotor is stopped, the decoder must deal with a stall motor situation. But there are a lot more variables at play today that negate this concern of yours.
1) Voltage will kill a semiconductor instantly, not current.
2) Heat related to current will kill a semiconductor if the semiconductor exceeds it maximum operating temperature. When that happens, then destructive forces take over. Thus heat-sinking plays a role in this too. That why many O-scale loco decoders sometime have some kind of heat sink.
3) The Decoder is applying PULSES of power to the motor. When you hit speed step one, the duty cycle is very low or at it lowest value.
4) The duty Cycle Factor:
Power = Current (motor) x Voltage(track) Heat = Power x Duty Cycle. The point is that you take the stall current multiplied by the track voltage and then apply the duty cycle factor, the effective heating value is no longer a concern. The FET can take it without a problem. Once the motor starts to move when you crank the throttle a bit more, then the stall current situation goes away completely and the peak current goes away (down to motor run current).
5) The transistor used (MOSFET) have pulse ratings that go way beyond the steady state specification. If you look at the SOA curve, it is easy to see.
6) Many Decoder manufacture do not even publish peak current specs anymore. They publish average current specs. Why? They are no longer concerned about peak current for they are familiar with the motors used in locomotives and have MOSFET available today that can take a lot more power than before. From a customer relations point of view, simplicity is in the interest of the Decoder manufacture. Presenting anything that is complicated to know or measure can only deter the customer.
7) I no longer recommend stall motor current measurement to anyone since they are tricky to do, potentially harmful to the motor, and serves almost no purpose today. Now if someone has a very old brass engine with a very old motor, I might be more concerned. But then I also do not hesitate to tell them to replace the motor to something more modern.
Today I talk about slip current....the point where the engine battles to maintain traction. In other words, the point where the train stalls, not the motor. That’s the worst power condition the decoder will see in terms of heat and current in practice.
8) Common Sense still needs to apply. Putting a Z-scale decoder in a O-scale engine does not make any sense. You get what you ask for. But using a decoder one scale larger or smaller than the scale you’re in typically works just fine. I only recommend this if you’re cornered on space issues. Typically space limited engine are small engines which do not consume much power anyway! But if you have room, put in the decoder for that scale and simply keep your life simple.
Don Crano and I have been in agreement about this for a long time.
Best Regards, Mark Gurries
Bruce said
Denny (et al) -
Allow me to say that you are fortuitous!
In actuality, the very first pulse EVERY TIME you start your loco from a dead stop is stall current. And, if you reverse direction without stopping, the first pulse will EXCEED stall current.
The number of these high current pulses is a function of the speed with which the motor physically responds. This is all related to the back EMF of the motor.
If they are few enough high current pulses, the transistors that are being over-taxed will not pop. If there are too many, then POOF - you have a short-lived, expensive smoke unit!
Personally, while I MIGHT risk a $25 range decoder in my personal loco, I would NEVER risk a $100 range decoder, nor would I install one for a customer. BTW, Soundtraxx can tell and damage like this is not covered by their warranty.
There are decoders designed for high stall current applications, like the Lenz Silver and Gold series. The HO versions of these decoders will handle stall currents in excess of 5 amps, with running currents in the 1+ amp range. In fact, they will not be damaged by a direct motor short. They will shut down and set an error message. WARNING - a short between a motor lead and a track lead WILL destroy them, however.
--
Bruce Petrarca www.Mr-DCC.com Arizona, USA
When to fit an additional Booster?
Adding a Booster is only required when the current drawn by the layout approaches the capacity of the Booster.
Without using a DCC Ammeter you don’t know how much current is being drawn by the layout. To calculate when a second or subsequent Booster is required, each DCC user had to guess how much current was being used by allowing 1.0 Amp per loco that was being used on the layout. Now users are using a more conservative value of .75 Amp per loco is now the recommended value per loco. Using this value is way out.
Make an Ammeter. Its easy. Almost everyone who owns a layout will have a Digital Multimeter. If you don't, I don't know how you have come this far in the hobby without one, go out and buy one. At the same time purchase a 6 Amp bridge rectifier and connect this up with the multimeter as shown below. Its SIMPLE, not rocket scientist stuff, its basic.
There is NO excuse for not having an ammeter.
When the operating current of the layout (or Booster) reaches the capacity of the booster, divide the layout and fit a second Booster. On my club layout operating about 10 locos some double headed and some sound, the layout only drew 1.5 to 2.0 amps, all the time. All the club members were surprised. Remember not all operators are running their locos at once, some are stopped in yards/stations, some are awaiting dispatchers instructions, some are switching etc.
See below how $2 can make you a DCC Ammeter.
A simple DCC Ammeter.
All that is necessary is a 5 to 10 Amp Panel Meter (Dial analogue type) or a 5 to 10 Amp Cheap Digital Multimeter and a 6 Amp Bridge Rectifier.
Construction is so easy, just install the 6 Amp Bridge Rectifier in SERIES with either of the track feeders from the Power Pro by connecting one lead to one of the Bridge Rectifiers AC or ~ terminals and then connect the other AC or ~ to the track. Connect the Digital Multimeter or 5 Amp Panel Meter, to the Bridge Rectifiers + and - terminals.
The bridge rectifier reduces the track voltage by approximately 1.0 to 1.5 volts, so a Bypass Switch can be inserted for when the Ammeter is not required, if you want the maximum voltage to the track. Some DCC systems allow the track voltage to be adjusted, so this voltage drop could be compensated for.
See my DCC Meters. Page.
Measuring the DCC Track Voltage when using NCE DCC.
To measure the Track Voltage for comparison readings, say when looking for a Voltage Drop that may be causing trains to slow up on the layout etc, a Multimeter set to A.C. Volts will provide a "close enough" reading. All readings will be "out" by the same “percentage” error.
Remember when looking for Voltage Drops, have a load like an 1156 lamp (a 2 Amp Load) across the track or even better across the Multimeter Leads, while looking for the Voltage Drop. Without a load (current flowing), all voltage readings will be the same, indicating “perfect” wiring/connections.
My four $10 "special" Digital Multimeters display within 1/2 Volt of what my Pricom DCC Tester displays. I have seen some meters show 5 or so Volts difference, so be aware of your Multimeter. If your Multimeter reads 13 - 15 Volts A.C. when measuring the Track Voltage, that's good enough.
For an accurate Track Voltage measure without a specialist DCC Meter like the Procom DCC Tester or Tony's RRampmeter, use you same Digital Multimeter as above but set to D.C. Volts (yes D.C. Volts). Connect the Positive Lead to the "V Ref" Pad on the L/H Circuit Board (Booster) of the Power Pro Box and the Negative Lead to the L/H Front screw securing the case Top (Booster Earth - Common). This is all explained in the Manual that comes with your system on page 15, under "Adjusting the PB105 DCC Output Voltage", with pictures.
If you don't want to remove the Top, connect the Positive Lead to ONE Rail and the Negative Lead to the above "Case" securing screw. Your Multimeter will display HALF the Track Voltage. Multiply by TWO and you have your DCC Track Voltage for no extra expense, as you'd all have a Multimeter around the layout.
Bye the way, NCE sets the PB105 Booster Track Voltage at the factory, to the NMRA recommended 14.25 +/- 0.1 Volts, that's suitable for N, HO & S Scale.
For the Power Cab, the voltage is dependant on the Transformer being used, in most cases in the U.S, to what the P114 delivers.
If you want your locos to go faster, adjust your voltage higher but be mindful that incandescent lamps in your locos may burn out. See the Manual.
What each modeler sees as "their" best voltage is different.
For me I "Speed Match" all my locos to have a Maximum Speed of 30 MPH by CV 5 as I’m running model trains and not Slot Cars and I see all operators running locos on my layout, their layouts and at Exhibitions, SLOWLY. No one I see except Kids, want to drive locos fast and no where near the “prototypical” speed. Gee my track work is not that good plus I want to stretch my operating experience longer, not shorter.
I could have my Track Voltage at about 12.0 Volts. Having 12 Volts would be easier on the decoder electronics with less heat developed. Some on this group have said they have reduced "their" problems by using a lower voltage.
Short Management using C/Bs or 1156s.
This is a very commonly asked question on all the DCC Yahoo groups.
Extra "short" management is NOT necessary to operate with DCC. Every DCC system has its own internal circuit breaker to remove the layout power when it senses a short.
The reason operators of DCC use short management mainly is to do with providing a more pleasant operating session when there are more than one (possibly two) operators using the layout.
A home layout where there is only the owner operating, a short circuit that shuts down the WHOLE layout is not a major problem or inconvenience, because the operator has to find the short. On a layout where there are more than two or more operators, short circuits causing a total (global) shutdown of the layout are a real pain and inconvenience.
Bye the way, the typical reason for a short circuit is that the operator
The options for providing short management to divide the layout, so that only the section or power district that created the short has its power removed, in the order of price, are:
Depending on how many power district you make, may determine which way you go.
Joe Fugate from Siskiyou Lines fame, many others and me, use 1156 exclusively for short management with nothing less than fantastic results. Even the most particular modeller will not be disappointed with the use of 1156s, if they are used within their limitation. If you work in this limitation, they are fantastic, easy to fit and a very useful device for locating ANY short.
Locos these days each only draw including sound, at maximum about 200 to 400 mAs of current. The operational limit for 1156s is about 800 - 900 mAs. So you can successfully run 3 or 4 locos in a power district controlled by an 1156 without exceeding the limitation.
Now what happens when using 1156s and there is a short:
1. Current is NOT removed from the short at the track. The current is reduced to 2.1 Amps.
2. There is, depending upon the DCC system capacity, current still available to the other power districts.
3. This allows all other operators to still continue running and they are possibly oblivious to a short happening somewhere else, because the booster did NOT cut out.
Now to correct this MYTH, using 1156s will CAUSE ANYTHING TO CATCH FIRE or NOT MELT ANYTHING or DAMAGE decoders or DAMAGE wiring to the decoders or track. Did you hear of anyone melting track ties in DC when operating with 1156s, and then tell me about it, I'll bet there was another reason.
Say for the discussion, my NCE Power Pro can supply 5 Amps. A short in one of the 1156 power districts, the 1156 will restrict the current flowing in this power district to 2.1 Amps but the rest of the layout will still have 2.9 Amps available that will allow normal operation on all but the largest of layouts, for the other operators.
An example, I wired up our club 29 module layout, with an 1156 for each module and each module insulated from each adjacent module, to eliminate the annoying booster shut down during an operating session. Not one member complained about operating except when using lighted passenger cars, but remarked how fantastic it was to operate without the continual annoying shut downs. Everyone was ecstatic.
A typical operating session would comprise of 6 to 8 operators using about 10 locos (some double headed) and quite a few sound locos. Without shorts the layout ammeter showed between 1.5 to 2.0 amps all night.
Now one short (2.1 amps flowing in that area) and still 2.9 amps available, no one else new about the short. If two shorts at the same instance, then 4.2 amps and depending on hw may locos are ACTUALLY running at that instance, will determine if the booster trips.
Now for the trick with operating with 1156s. Locate them in a line side building or similar. When there is a short, that operator will NOT miss seeing the lamp illuminate, even in daylight hours and will take preventative action very soon, as he will be visibly warned why his loco stopped by the highly effective visual warning of the area around the brightly illuminated 1156. Hence I recommend locating the lamp above the track instead of below the track, hidden by curtains etc.
If the loco stops with no visual warning, then the problem is with dirty track or wheels or a faulty decoder or wiring etc, but not a short.
Hope this clears the air about 1156s. Now you can make a conservative decision about using them. There is a lot of scare mongering about this topic that is just NOT TRUE. Take the time to research this great and effective short management option. You will be surprised.
I have divided my layout into "town" size districts and the club layout made up of 29 modules into module size districts (29 power districts) and both layouts work like a charm. Test and you will see. 1156s are also great to locate that difficult to locate fault (problem) with track, wiring etc that are so hard to find. Just go to the illuminated area, remove any locos, and if the 1156 is still illuminated, there is the problem right in front of you. No wasting hours of time locating that short. At max of $2 each, how cheap is this, for trouble free, no interruption, layout operation.
For more information about the use of 1156s see:
See Joe Fugate's really informative video about how these 1156s work. A few pictures (or a video) are better than thousands of words, as I have explained in the past. Joe is really the pioneer of 1156 short management and has done a lot to get the word across about this often misunderstood device. See the 2 minute video at:
http://model-trains-video.com/assets/video/shortMgmt2_bbhi.swf
Joe is the 1156 Myth Buster.
See also:
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/nswmn/1156.htm
We don't have to have the high tech, higher cost, electronic circuit breakers to provide what an 1156 or similar wattage lamp has provided in the past. Electronic Auto Reversers are different, but the humble ole 1156 will do for me. Others may want to use these circuit breakers for whatever reason, that's their choice. I'm showing you an option you choose.
Runaways Why and what to do?
Runaways happen on some DCC layouts. Modellers may wonder what they have committed to by going DCC with all these things about wiring. I mention all of these just so you are aware of them. If you have an existing layout, and are unfortunate to have a problem, then one of these things could bring you back down under the threshold that gives successful DCC running. If you are contemplating a new layout, then consider these below things while constructing and you will go a long way on preventing any problems.
If you are experiencing runaways, then I would recommend the easier solutions first. Setting CV 29 to DC OFF is the most important fix, Conflicts in Cab addresses, Get used to de-selecting the last loco you have operated, see below, fit terminators to both the Power Bus and Cab Bus, eliminate the reasons that you have shorts on the layout etc.
While DCC continues to grow, we are learning a lot from each other, even the manufacturers are learning. Some modellers who experience these problems have had to sort out their problem with some high tech equipment (Oscilloscopes) and found that the electrical noise on both busses can be reduced by fitting terminators to both busses and twisting the power bus. This has proved also to reduce the interference, to a level that the systems can manage. These two remedies have reduce the occurrence of runaways. The fact that some modellers have fitted suppression devices does not mean it is the only thing that causes runaways. All the mentioned causes contribute to the problem.
Twisting the power bus and fitting terminators has now become the preferred method of laying a Power Bus instead of laying parallel wires, 2 to 3 inches apart. See the link below at Allan Gartner’s site that explains and shows oscilloscope pictures of the systems that have had these problems and shows that fitting terminators and twisting has results, by improving the DCC waveform that gives the decoder the best chance of detecting the DCC information.
Listed below are some possible causes of interference or a problem that can contribute to runaways:
Terminators for the Power and Cab Busses.
R/C (Resistance Capacitance) Terminators suppress electrical “noise” that in some instances can corrupt the data sent to the decoder (Power Bus) and the throttle (Cab Bus). This problem is mainly for layouts with larger length busses. If your layout shows any hint of strange operating problems, fit some Terminators. These are made up using a resistor and capacitor wired in SERIES and connected to the END of the bus. A bus with a Terminator is better than one without and due and they’re cheap and easy to make.
Why to Twist the Power Bus.
Note: If you have an existing layout of ANY size and you don’t have a slowing down loco problem, then you DONT have to worry about anything. You certainly don’t have to rewire your layout with twisted power busses. Just continue having fun.
Every now and then, there is a reported problem that a modeller cannot resolve by conventional methods of troubleshooting. For example, adjusting CVs, checking loco for mechanical problems etc, that does not fix the problem. One particular problem was the slowing down of locos, on LARGE layouts by a small number of operators.
What causes the problem? A combination of the DCC frequency and the inductance of the layout wiring (increases with length), has caused on some LARGE layouts with long power bus runs, the voltage to be reduced to level that the loco slowed or even stopped at a particular position on the layout. The longer the power bus length is, the higher the value of inductance and the greater chance that this inductance causes a problem. Connecting DC to this same problem wiring, allowed a DC loco to operate, unaffected. The continually changing polarity of DCC is affected by inductance whereas the fixed polarity of a DC signal, is not
Twisting the Power Bus wires, approximately 3 turns per foot, reduces the inductance enough, so as to not impact on the voltage or only to a small degree that it is not noticed. This is why an existing layout that does not exhibit any of the slowing of the loco does not have to have the Power Bus wires, twisted.
Best practices evolve when frustrating problems surface, by actually road testing what was considered the best practice at the time, under many different environments and conditions, and analyse these problems under these problem conditions. In many cases, these problems would not happen, making the fault all that harder to rectify and to offer a remedy. This is the same with many items in today’s high tech society.
In the case of DCC, a few dedicated modellers that have the understanding, the experience and with suitable equipment, were able to demonstrate with the aid of oscilloscope patterns, what was happening to the DCC signal on long power bus runs and unterminated wiring. The slowing of the loco, if all the wiring is good and of large enough gauge, then the slowing was due to excessive inductance. The chapter Long Power buses at Allan Gartner’s Wiring for DCC shows these oscilloscope patterns.
From the above experiences, the best practices for wiring up a NEW layout NOW, is to twist the Power Busses 3 twists per foot. If you don’t twist your wires, in most cases, you’ll NOT have a problem, but if you are unfortunate enough to have this problem, then twisting after the wiring has been done is much harder than twisting while you install the wiring, hence the recommendation to twist the wires during layout construction.
Note: In the 2004 Power Pro Manual NCE (p 10) now recommends for best results on long runs (over 20 feet), twist the bus wires about three turns per foot. The previous yellow Manual did not have this recommendation to twist. NCE is also learning about DCC.
The way I see it, it is easier to wire a few twists per foot, into the Power Bus, while installing it and know that you will not get the reported problems, than when you have finished your layout wiring and find you have the problem, to now rectify it.
A Possible Solution also mentioned by Allan Gartner above link. If you have an existing layout and are experiencing slowing of locos and would find twisting difficult. What I have done to my long power bus runs on my layout, even though I have not noticed any loco slowing down is, I twist the wires TO the power district and IN the power districts, I lay the wires parallel. This makes connecting the track droppers easy and shortens my untwisted power bus.
So for wiring the Power Bus, the recommendation now is:
There is NO best DCC system, just the one that is best for you.
Every one of us has to go through this process. You can spend a lot time and researching a lot of sites, joining Yahoo Groups following the discussion and searching the archives for information etc to help you choose a system. If you have not had any experience with DCC, then all this research and reading could only confuse you. How do novices understand technical stuff by just reading? It is very difficult choosing a system via the Internet. Use these sites to help you decide. See below for the most important criteria for choosing a DCC system.
A couple of typical questions commonly asked at Yahoo Groups are:
The members of these groups are mostly owner/operators of those systems and can be a little biased towards their system and mostly will not say anything detrimental about it. We are on a whole, normal people.
Basically all DCC systems do the same thing, they offer:
Where the DCC systems are different, is how they do all of this:
As with all products, the cheaper systems have obviously less features and options. The more expensive have more flexibility, features and options.
A very important thing to consider when purchasing your system, the system is just the first item but only a small proportion of what you may spend on you DCC expedition. Considering price is thus not as important as purchasing a single item. This is not say, not to consider price, just to put it in perspective and for this reason, I would recommend not to skimp on the system.
You should also consider:
Going alone with new technology can sometimes be daunting, to say the least and these above question items will provide a local base of operators. All of us need some help at the beginning.
Your Throttle is your interface to your trains. Whenever you’re running trains, you’ll have one in your hands so you should be comfortable with the Throttle. I consider this the most important criteria for selecting a system. What type of layout do you have? If you have a “walk around” it would be a disadvantage on have a panel mounted throttle. There are many people using DCC now and many hobby shops that stock the systems. At the Shop, Exhibition etc with a Throttle in your hand do this:
For NCE owners that have nominated their layouts for perhaps a personal road test and answers to some of the questions you have, see the Database of NCE users in the NCE Yahoo group.
Decoder Pro is available free via the Internet. This is a great programming utility for programming DCC decoders and offers many other features. A decoder programmed or read by Decoder Pro will have all the CV values saved in Decoder Pro. This is especially useful for programming the complex sound decoders. Using plain English selections for programming a decoder, there is no need to work out any values. What equipment is needed and how to download Decoder Pro, are included at the above site.
Decoder Pro is compiled by many programmers involved with model trains around the world led by Bob Jacobsen and is continually updated with software upgrades available many times a year.
Decoder Pro for the 5/10 Amp Power Pro.
Firstly download Java, then download JMRI from the JMRI “Downloads” page.
Note: For Decoder Pro with the 2007 Command Station EPROM, you’ll need Version 1.7.6 or later. As of May 2012, the current release version is 2.14.
Connect the computer to the Power Pro Box with a “Straight Through” Serial Cable not a Null Modem type that many computer shops will sell you. Purchase a 9 Pin Plug to 9 Pin Socket, Mouse Extension Cable. For Aussies a Jaycar 1.8 metre WC7534 cable, is a suitable one.
The two hex nuts on the Power Pro Box Serial connector are too high and in some cases prevent the Serial Cable Plug from correctly seating in the socket. This prevents communication between both units. Remove the 2 Nuts and cut off some of the Nut or connect without the Nuts.
A Laptop without a Serial Port will need a USB Adaptor and NOT all USB Adaptors work with Decoder Pro.
One that is known to work and is recommended by the folks at JMRI (Decoder Pro), is the Keyspan USA HS-19 USB to Serial Adapter, but it’ll need a “Straight Through” Serial Cable ALSO, see the notes on USB Adaptors, below.
I use Aten Part No UC-232A and for all the Aussies the easy to purchase the Jaycar Electronics USB Adaptor Part No XC4834, costing $29.95. The beauty of this Jaycar unit is that it is 1.7 metres long and in a lot of installations, you won’t need an Extension Cable, like I do with my Aten unit or what you’ll need with the Keyspan USA HS-19, etc.
For ALL the USB to Serial Adaptors, you need to download/install the appropriate “Driver” for it to work.
Note: Some USB Adaptors like my Aten, need to be installed in the SAME USB Port, when ever it is connected to the computer, due to a lack of a Serial Number.
For Decoder Pro 3 to work, you’ll need to make the appropriate settings. This is done at “initial” start up of Decoder Pro where the Preferences Window pops up automatically or it can be done by selecting “Edit” on the opening window then select “Preferences”
In the Preferences Window for Decoder Pro 3, make the following selections:
1. System Manufacturer, select “NCE”
2. System Connection – “Serial”. Note: If you are using a Serial to USB Adaptor for your Laptop, do NOT select NCE USB.
3. Settings: Serial Port, select the COM Port number listed in the Device Manager Ports COM & LPT list, see Getting the Com Port Number right, below.
4. Click on the box “Additional Connection Settings”
5. Set the Baud Rate to “9600”.
6. At Command Station EPROM, select 2006 and later or 2004 or earlier. The date of the C/S software (EPROM) can be checked, using the Procab, Press PROG/ESC until “SET CMD STATION” is displayed. Press ENTER. The system EPROM date is displayed, for example “Version: MAR 1 2007A”.
7. Click on “SAVE” at the L/H bottom corner of the Preferences Box.
Decoder Pro shuts downs, saving all the above settings and opens up again, hopefully working correctly allowing you to program decoders.
Just like many model railroad groups, a Decoder Pro group called JMRIusers has been set up at Yahoo Groups. See below how to join Yahoo
If Decoder Pro does NOT work and comes up with an Error Message, then there could be a problem with:
· You have not got the driver installed for the USB Adaptor.
· You have not got the correct Com Port selected. This is a constant irritation with getting connected. See below
· The USB Adaptor is one that does NOT work with Decoder Pro. See the Scan Check below
· The Serial Cable is NOT a “Straight Through” type.
· If you un-installed and re-installed JMRI, endeavouring to get Decoder Pro to work, see Matt Harris’s message below
jmriusers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jmriusers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mattharris_merg Sent: Monday, 16 August 2010 11:23 PM Subject: [jmriusers]
Re: Unable to install JMRI
This issue is caused by an Add/Remove programs registry entry still being in existence - was an earlier JMRI version deleted from this machine (as opposed to being uninstalled)?
Regardless, it is possible to fix this problem using the following file:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jmriusers/files/Windows/RemoveOldJMRIUninstallEntry.exe
Running this will remove the erroneous uninstall entry allowing the regular installer, to proceed.
Hope this helps. Best regards, Matt H
Check for “Straight Through” Serial Cable commonly called a Mouse Extension Cable. Using a multimeter, check the continuity (circuit) between Pin 1 to Pin 1, Pin 2 to Pin 2, Pin 3 to Pin 3 etc. If this checks out ok then you have got the right Cable.
Cannot get Decoder Pro to work – Checking connections & Command Station with the NCE Monitor.
Most issues with getting connected with Decoder Pro are due to the:
1. The correct Drivers not being installed for the USB to Serial Adaptor (Power Pro) or for the NCE USB Interface (Power Cab)
2. Using a Null Modem Cable INSTEAD of a “Straight Through” Cable. A Mouse Extension Cable is suitable here.
3. Incorrect settings in Decoder Pro’s Preferences Setup.
a. Power Pro system: NCE, Serial, the COM Port (from the Device Manager), “Additional Settings” 9,600 Baud & Command Stn Eprom Date.
b. Power Cab system: NCE, NCE USB, the COM Port (from the Device Manager), System: Power Cab/SB3a/Power Pro “Additional Settings” 9,600 Baud.
Once your Preferences have been set BUT Decoder Pro still does not work, Decoder Pro comes with a Utility to check for communications with the Command Station.
1. Open up Decoder Pro 3.
2. From the Top Toolbar, select “NCE”.
3. Click on “Command Monitor to open the Monitor.
4. Click on “Start Logging”
5. Minimize the Command Monitor.
6. From the Top Toolbar, select “NCE”
7. Click on “Send Command”
8. Type “AA” in the Command Box
9. Then Click on “Send”
10. Minimize “Send Command Box.
11. Open the “Command Monitor”.
12. With communication to and from the Command Station correct you’ll see:“binary cmd:AA rep “06 02 01””
13. If you see: “binary cmd:AA” repeating every 10 seconds, there is NO 2 Way communications with the Command Station. This could be due to your Preferences settings incorrect, an issue with the Cables/Adaptors or a faulty Command Station. Double check settings.
14. To see whether it is your settings/Cables/Adaptors or your Command Station, if the COM Port being displayed is in the range of Port 1 to 9 do the JMRI Ports Scan Utility as detailed below from Line 4 and ON.
15. Using the results from the test below, you have a faulty Command Station or “bad” connections/settings/Adaptors etc.
Check for correct operation of the USB Adaptor:
Use a Scan Ports Utility downloaded from the below url. This utility will check the operation of the USB Adaptor and will get your COM Port right. This procedure is good for other DCC systems as well.
NOTE This Scan Test can only work if you have set up your computer to work with a COM Port of 1 through to 9.
USB to Serial Adaptors for Laptops etc
A Laptop without a Serial Port will need a USB Adaptor. Not all USB Adaptors work with Decoder Pro.
Not all USB to Serial Adaptors are made the same, for some reason. Some work with Decoder Pro and others don’t. Modellers have reported that they’ve purchased a “cheapie” USB to Serial Adaptor and they still cannot get Decoder Pro to work. Unless you want to take a chance with an “unknown” Adaptor, I’d recommend the one the folks at JMRI (Decoder Pro) and others in the U.S. are using, so you don’t get caught out.
A Keyspan USA HS-19 USB to Serial Adapter. Google “Keyspan USA HS-19 USB to Serial Adapter” for places to purchase.
The Keyspan USA HS-19 DOES NOT plug directly into the Power Pro box due to they’re supplied with threaded receptacles, instead of screws. These Adaptors are designed to plug into an Extension Cable. You must purchase a “Straight Through” Serial Extension Cable (not a Null Modem Cable). These extension cables are commonly called “Mouse Extension” cables.
I’m an Australian user and have been using an Aten Part No UC-232A USB Adaptor, for years with a 2 Meter Mouse Extension (Straight Through) Cable.
Lately I used 1.7 meter USB to Serial Adaptor from Jaycar Electronics Part No XC4834, costing $29.95 that screws directly into the Power Pro box, eliminating need of an Extension Cable. Note: This unit shows on my Laptop’s Device Manager, as a “Prolific USB to Serial” and did not come with any software/disc. My Laptop must have already had the Prolific “Driver” installed. If your computer does not show the Adaptor, you’ll have to download the Driver Software from “Prolific”, at:
http://www.prolific.com.tw/eng/downloads.asp?ID=31
When you have connected you computer and the Power Pro box, see the topics above for “Decoder Pro for the 5/10 Amp Power Pro” to set up the Preferences page in Decoder Pro and topic below, “Getting the COM Port “right” so the two will communicate.
Getting the COM Port right for Decoder Pro and NCE.
If you’re having problems getting connected with Decoder Pro with the Error message NCE ERROR USING COM X displayed in the centre of the Start Up window, the Computer has lost or it was not allocated correctly or whatever, you have to find the CORRECT COM Port the Computer allocated for the connection.
You MUST plug in the USB Serial Adaptor, NCE USB Interface or Serial Cable PLUGGED IN, before it will be displayed in the “Ports (COM & LPT)” list in Device Manager, to see the COM Port that has been allocated by the computer at the “end” of the listed Driver eg, “Silicon Labs CP210x UART Bridge COM17”. Enter this COM Port number into the JMRI Preferences settings. To get to Device Manager to see the Ports (COM & LPT) list, see “To find the COM Port if using a PC and XP” below.
Note: For Windows 7, you will not see the “Ports (COM & LPT)” listed in the Device Manager, UNLESS a USB to Serial Adaptor or USB Interface is plugged into a USB Port AND the relevant “Driver” software has been installed onto the computer. If this is the case, there is a problem with the USB Adaptor/NCE Interface and/or the software for the applicable “Driver”, is not installed on the computer.
If the Driver (Prolific, Silicon Labs CP210x etc) is located in the Universal Serial Bus Controllers List, it’s in the WRONG place.
USB to Serial Adaptors like my Aten 232A, don’t have a Serial Number included so they must be inserted into the SAME USB Port every time, while ones like the Belkin etc with a Serial Number can be plugged into any USB Port.
NOTE: If using an Extension Cable with the USB to Serial Adaptor, the Cable MUST be a Straight Through type (Pin 1 to Pin 1, Pin 2 to Pin 2 etc) and NOT a Null Modem cable that many computer shops will sell you. A Mouse Extension Cable is perfect for this job.
To find the COM Port if using a PC and XP do:
If the “Preferences Page” did NOT open up, when Decoder Pro opens up, select “Edit” on the opening window, then “Preferences”
Now you should be running if this was the problem. I always have trouble on how and where to find things and what to do when a Save Run window pops up, so I will have this for my reference also, because I’m sure I won’t know what to do when I update.
Note: Some USB Adaptors like my Aten, need to be installed in the SAME USB Port, when ever it is connected to the computer, due to a lack of a Serial Number.
Back To Setting Up the Preferences
Getting the correct Port for Macs with a Power Cab/USB Interface.
Firstly see the Instructions on getting Decoder Pro up and running with the Power Cab or Power Pro below topic, for software versions, Jumper, Preference Setting etc. If you still cannot get Decode Pro working, Graeme Brown has written these “Mac” instructions, to help getting connected to Decoder Pro.
Which version of OSX? I know 10.4 and 10.6 work, as I use them with JMRI. 10.7 broke a lot of drivers when it first came out though.
Which version of JMRI (Decoder Pro) are you using?
Which NCE system? The USB interface does work with the Power Pro, but it won't allow you to program locos. For the Power Cab, you have to have software version 1.28c or later to use the USB interface.
Have you downloaded and installed the correct SiLabs driver? Unlike Windows, OSX won't go looking for drivers, you have to install the correct one for your version of OSX yourself.
Make sure you have the Power Cab and USB interface connected and powered up and the USB connection made, before you start Decoder Pro.
Open the Decoder Pro select Preferences from the “Edit” Tab and set them up as follows (assuming a Power Cab and a recent version of Decoder Pro).
- select 'Connections' on the left
- select NCE as the system manufacturer
- select NCE USB
- Select Power Cab as the system connection
- select the correct serial port. If JMRI can find the driver, one of the choices will be “/dev/cu.SLAB_USBtoUART” and that is the one you want. If that exact choice isn't shown, the driver isn't installed properly.
CLICK on SAVE at the bottom L/H side.
Restart Decoder Pro and if it still won't connect then there is possibly a hardware problem, cables, or interface, or rarely the Power Cab......
Check the USB interface using System Profiler by:
Clicking on the Apple menu, select ‘About this Mac’ then click on ‘More Info…. Select USB in the list on the left.
If the NCE USB interface is plugged in, it will show as a “CP2102 USB to UART Bridge Controller”.
If it isn't shown, you have a faulty USB cable, or less likely, a dead USB interface..
If the cable is OK and the Silabs driver has been installed properly, it should be listed in Extensions as “SilabsUSBdriver”.
If Decoder Pro still can't connect, then the cable between the USB interface and the PCP may be faulty. Try swapping it for another.
Connecting Decoder Pro to a Power Cab/USB Interface.
NOTE: Simple instructions for configuring the Jumpers on the 4 Links on the NCE USB
Interface from Dave Heap.
All OFF: Baud Rate of 9600 works. Set a Baud Rate of 9600
in Decoder Pro Preferences by selecting “Additional Settings”.
All ON: Baud Rate of 19200 works. Set a Baud Rate 19200 as
above. This only works if the USB Interface is set to a valid cab address for
the system in question.
I prefer the
All On and 19200 because it allows you to move the USB away from cab address 3.See
USB Interface Manual.
If the cab
address is not valid you will get the version number but then fails to
communicate (possibly with Cab Bus LED stuck on). JMRI will let you change cab
address anyway (you may need to pop reset stuck LED by unplugging cab bus
cable) and then it will start working.
If after
setting the Jumpers and the appropriate Baud Rate in Decoder Pro Preferences at
the “Additional Settings” box, Decoder Pro still does not “connect”:
With
the Roster open/selected (it may be empty).
Select
“Help”.
Select
“System Console”
A
lot of text will be displayed and it continues trying to connect with
continuing errors.
“Click”
on the “Copy to Clipboard”
Using
your Email send a copy of the Clipboard to me.
Also see
below.
If Decoder Pro does NOT work and comes up with an Error Message, then there could be a problem with:
· The Power Cab is not powered.
· Power Cab software is earlier than V1.28c.
· Other Preference settings, not correct. See above list.
· You have NOT removed ALL the links on the USB Interface
Running this will remove the erroneous uninstall entry allowing the regular installer, to proceed.
Hope this helps. Best regards, Matt H
NCE
USB Interface – Setting of the Jumpers.
All USB Jumpers OFF at least 2, 3 & 4. Jumper 1 is ignored).
Settings in JMRI
Preferences are:
Serial port:
COM # (whatever is appropriate for your system).
Additional
Connection Settings->Baud rate: 9600.
Version 7 USB Interface and Power Cab V1.65 are:
All
USB Jumpers ON (or at least 2, 3 & 4. Jumper 1 is ignored).
Settings in JMRI
preferences are:
Serial port:
COM # (whatever is appropriate for your system)
Additional
Connection Settings->Baud rate: 19200.
The JMRI
console log should then report V7.3.7.
Version 7 USB Interface and SB5 are:
USB
Jumper 4 ON All
others off (or at least 2 & 3.
Jumper 1 is ignored).
Settings in
JMRI Preferences are:
Serial port:
COM # (whatever is appropriate for your system).
Additional
Connection Settings->Baud rate: 19200.
The JMRI
console log should then report V7.3.1.
Using Decoder Pro without reading the CV values
Programming without reading CVs using Decoder Pro.
Simply put, you are assigning you NEW loco (eg 3618), to an already made up Decoder Pro decoder specifications sheet, complete with default values, by selecting the relevant decoder from the decoder list that opens up when you use the Use Programming Track selection and then typing your NEW LOCO NUMBER at the I.D. Tab. For example if you have just installed a Soundtraxx Tsunami Light (TSU-1000) into the loco, select “Throttle Up” from the Manufacturers List and select the Light under TSU-1000.
Step by Step Instructions to achieve this:
See how you go, especially those of you that don’t have a program track booster.
Copying Decoder Pro Roster Entries from one computer to another.
Click on Start > Computer > OS C > Users > Administrator/You, > JMRI.
Join Yahoo Groups and Wiring for DCC.
See how you go. If you need some help, there is plenty at Yahoo Groups, Wiring for DCC and here.
Ill see you posting some messages soon.
Using Microsoft Outlook to view your Emails.
Then make Outlook Express your default email reader for want of a better word.
Fantastic Model Train Videos from Joe Fugate including DCC topics.
To watch a two minute preview on using 1156s for short management, click here.
Why NCE’s Power Cab is the BEST.
Click here for my preview of the Power Cab.
If the Power Cab was available when I purchased my Power Pro, it would have given me the enough power and operational capability that I need for my 30 x 20 double deck layout I am still building, with the optional second throttle, a radio unit.
NCE Systems Comparisons – at a glance. NCE prices (Oct 2010).
Power Cab $199.95 - 1.5 Amps of power - enough for 3 to 4 HO locos including sound
One extra throttle or the optional extra USB Interface.
SB3a $159.95 – 5.0 Amps of power AND you’ll need to already own a Power Cab.
4 throttles or 3 when using the optional extra USB Interface.
Power Cab/Power Panel for separate Program Track, see below for details.
Power Pro $349.95 (Power Pro Box) if you already have a Power Cab
$529.95 (System complete with Procab).
63 throttles, AIUs and Mini Panels
Included RS232 Computer connection for Decoder Pro.
Separate Program Track output.
The added benefit for Clubs going with NCE
Clubs have a slightly different requirement than a home layout operator.
Clubs – Club Members should purchase Power Cabs instead of Procabs including Radio versions.
The Power Cab system has TWO modes of operation:
NCE DCC offers flexibility, features and options that others don’t.
They are mainly in groups to do with:
Compare DCC systems on your short list and see if they have these:
More details of the NCE system.
Dedicated buttons for all the popular selections:
A programmable OPTION button for Direction, Emergency Stop, Brake etc, see the Manual.
Radio – the ULTIMATE in control of trains.
All non radio throttles can be upgraded to radio by NCE or a few of it’s Dealers, at a later date.
All radio throttles can be used as plug in throttles.
A Serial Port for Computer Interface to use programs like Decoder Pro.
Expanding the Power Cab - Options.
SB3a – 5 Amps and 4 Cab Addresses but no Program Track Output. See below for programming decoders.
This is the beauty of the way NCE does DCC, an addition for each option.
Tony' prices on the NCE range show the following (Dec 2011), at:
SB3a 5 Amp Smart Booster - $127.96
CS02 Command Station - $199.95
5 Amp Power Pro System - $412.95
5 Amp Power Pro Radio - $545.95
Power Pro Box (Power Pro system less the Procab) - $279.95.
Once you have a Power Cab, to expand it, it will cost:
$127.96 – SB3a 5 Amps but only 4 Cab Addresses (throttles Mini Panels USB Interface etc).
$279.95 - Power Pro Box ONLY including computer connection PLUS 63 Cab Addresses
$412.95 – Power Pro 5 Amp system. When expanding, everyone needs an extra throttle.
$545.95 – For the ultimate a Radio system.
Programming with the Power Cab/SB3a Combination.
The SB3a does not have a Program Track output.
Using a SECOND Power Cab for the extra Cab on a Power Cab equipped layout.
Generally on a Power Cab equipped layout, it won’t be divided with Power Districts.
Is it possible to operate a Radio Throttle with the Power Cab System
Operating by radio is the ultimate form of train control.
Plug the RB02 Base Station into either the R/H or Rear RJ12 Cab Bus Sockets of the Power Panel.
Can the Power Cab “hand piece” be upgraded to Radio operation.
With NO Cab Bus activity, the Power Cab starts up as a POWER CAB SYSTEM.
If there is Cab Bus activity, then the Power Cab starts up as a PROCAB Throttle (hand piece).
Using Circuit Breakers and Auto Reversers with the Power Cab.
I personally know that the NCE EB3 Circuit Breaker does NOT work.
Circuit Breakers: DCC Specialties (Tony’s) PSX
Auto Reversers: DCC Specialties (Tony’s) PSX-AR
DCC Specialties (Tony’s) On Guard units.
1. Using the Coiled Cable instead of the 6 conductor "Flat" Cable.
4. A fault within the Power Cab's circuitry that makes the DCC voltage - send to NCE.
5. Bus most probably a Gold Wiper within either the Power Cab or Power Panel RJ Socket.
Pins 1 & 6 provide DCC power to the Power Panel, illuminating the LED.
Pins 2 & 5 are used for DC input from the DC Power Supply.
Pins 3 & 4 are used for Cab Bus data (not necessary for single Throttle operation).
For BOTH the V1.28c and the V1.65 versions:
Press PROG/ESC 5 times until “SET CMD STATION” is displayed.
Press “ENTER” at Version Number.
Press “ENTER” to scroll through the Command Station Options, until
“RESET SYSTEM PRESS 6 FOR YES” is displayed.
“ARE YOU SURE/ PRESS 1 FOR YES” is displayed.
The Power Cab Command Station will be reset to the default Factory Setting.
Associations to join in Australia.